Electrical receptacles / House built in 1953

[David Nasser]

Whats your certifications ???????

Im a ICC certified Building Inspector. (look me up )

Pay your dues, and quit trolling.

[David Nasser]

thats why you have verbiage in red stating that your not affiliated
with Nachi.....Keep trolling

[Greg Fretwell]

Originally Posted by dnasser

Whats your certifications ???????

Im a ICC certified Building Inspector. (look me up )

Pay your dues, and quit trolling.

Since you didn't specify who you were responding to

Florida license BN2102 Electrical inspector, also SBCCI commercial and residential electric, IAEI residential, commercial and plan review.
... this is an "electrical topic" isn't it?

Do you have an electrical certification?

[David Nasser]

His name was Mark Shunk, no disrespect to you or any Nachi member.
I live off of the great info. I get from the Nachi Message board.
I got my feathers ruffled a little by his comment

David

[Joseph Hagarty, CMI]

Originally Posted by dnasser

I got my feathers ruffled a little by his comment

David

Then smooth them out....

[jtedesco1]

Originally Posted by dnasser

I inpsected a house built in 1953, the recectacles were three prong,
but they all tested open ground.....would this be because back then the
houses were wired with two wires ? no ground wire.


if so how should I write it up.....


David

Some useful information and answers here to your question:

http://www.icgov.org/housing/documents/wiringalts.pdf

http://www.mikeholt.com/htmlnews/afc...nterminals.pdf

406.3(D) Replacements Replacement of receptacles shall comply with 406.3(D)(1), (D)(2), and (D)(3) as applicable.

(1) Grounding-Type Receptacles Where a grounding means exists in the receptacle enclosure or a grounding conductor is installed in accordance with 250.130(C), grounding-type receptacles shall be used and shall be connected to the grounding conductor in accordance with 406.3(C) or 250.130(C).

(2) Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupters Ground-fault circuit-interrupter protected receptacles shall be provided where replacements are made at receptacle outlets that are required to be so protected elsewhere in this Code.

(3) Non–grounding-Type Receptacles Where grounding means does not exist in the receptacle enclosure, the installation shall comply with (D)(3)(a), (D)(3)(b), or (D)(3)(c).

(a) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with another non–grounding-type receptacle(s).

(b) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a ground-fault circuit interrupter-type of receptacle(s). These receptacles shall be marked ``No Equipment Ground.'' An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter-type receptacle to any outlet supplied from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter receptacle.

(c) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle(s) where supplied through a ground-fault circuit interrupter. Grounding-type receptacles supplied through the ground-fault circuit interrupter shall be marked ``GFCI Protected'' and ``No Equipment Ground.'' An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected between the grounding-type receptacles.

NOTE: Grounding type receptacles were introduced around 1965.

[David Nasser]

Originally Posted by dnasser

Whats your certifications ???????

Im a ICC certified Building Inspector. (look me up )

Pay your dues, and quit trolling.

Thankyou very much Nachi Member's !!! Youve given me
great info. and disclosure on this matter.

[George P. Wells, CMI]

Originally Posted by Mike Whitt

No disrespect meant toward you or either of these fine authors but I believe that I would trust someone in the electrical field instead of someone that is a computer program designer.

Most of the surge protecters that are bought off the shelf at the local stores will operate on a 120 volt circuit regaurdless of an equipment grounding conductor.

Todays electonics are a lot more forgiving that those in the past.

Mike,


You are right. The trouble is that in the computer and electronics world they want grounds to float. If computer people had their way, that's the way it would be. In the power distribution world, they want grounds to be solidly connected to earth and they are solidly connected to earth (except in some special instances). Thus, the distinction between common mode and differential mode in residential wiring is a moot point.

What is far more important to understand is that most surge suppressors do use MOVs as has been pointed out already in this thread. An MOV acts as a shunt.

An MOV is going to work the same across the white grounded (neutral) conductor and the ungrounded black (hot) as is will across the green or bare ground and the ungrounded conductor. The reason is that they are both solidly grounded. In other words, MOVs and other household surge suppressors are generally Common-Mode Suppressors.

OK – That said, I don’t want to muddy the waters but – differential mode suppression is usually done with RC and LC filters. They do not do as much for Voltage surges as they do for differential mode noise. BUT – The capacitors and inductors (coils) in an RC or LC filters will also act as shunts when subjected to non-sinusoidal waveforms. They cannot be relied upon to acts as shunts though because there is no way to predict the waveform will be of an undesirable signal.

MOVs are independent of the waveform because they are resistive, not reactive. (If you don’t know what these terms mean, don’t worry, you don’t need to know them as a home inspector). In other words, they will behave essentially the same regardless of any noise present in the signal. They work because the resistance decreases as the Voltage increases. They are not affected by frequency.

The reason I mention the differential mode suppression is that if you open a household surge suppressor, you will probably find RC or LC filters in it in addition to one or more MOVs.

Finally, I believe that most surge suppressors are one of the biggest scams ever perpetrated on consumers. They offer very little protection. I am not saying that they are completely worthless but they are not providing the level of protection that they would like you to believe they are giving you and you are being overcharged for what you get. Most manufacturers put a 5¢ MOV in an outlet strip and charge an extra $20 for it. They may throw in a 10¢ filter to make it look more impressive but the filters are unnecessary because all electronic equipment is going to have its own internal power supply anyway.


To Summarize –

MOVs in residential surge suppressors are Common Mode Voltage Suppressors that work on the principle of a shunt (bypass).

The other components in a household surge suppressor are noise filters. They mainly filter out Differential Mode noise. There is almost no benefit to having those filters because almost anything you are likely to plug into the surge suppressor is going to have its own internal power supply.

One more thing

Perhaps you have heard of FIPS Pub 94 or The IEEE Emerald Book? FIPS Pub 94 originally defined the relationship between sensitive electronic equipment and electrical power distribution. A few years ago FIPS Pub 94 was officially retired and replaced with the IEEE Emerald Book. It is called the Emerald book because the Green Book had already existed for many years. The Emerald Book bridges that gap between the computer world and the electrical power distribution world.

[Mike Whitt]

Thank you for such a fine explaination of surge protection. I wish I could have done as good but I just couldn't

[rbrady]

I am always learning. I have a new understanding of surge protection. Here is a link to what looks like a really good surge protector. I noticed that the plug is a 3-prong plug, but the schematic does not show the ground circuit.
http://www.sellcom.com/brickwall.html?source=sell.com

While most surge protectors do use the ground wire, it turns out dumping a big load on the ground cicuit isn't such a good idea!!! See the link.
Not having a ground circuit is probably worse though.

Grounding of computers, etc. is still beneficial do reduce static issues. Most of the surge protectors in use do require a ground for the warranty/guarantee to be in effect.

[Greg Fretwell]

The trouble is that in the computer and electronics world they want grounds to float

Where did you hear that

[Justin Watts]

Hey David, Glad to have you here...... Fellow California Inspector

I wouldn't get to sucked into NEC code requirements and recommendations, since the home was constructed in the 1950's and if everything is original, you should make recommendations that the electrical system be upgraded or at a minimum be certified as safe by a licensed electrician. When it comes to electricity, houses can burn down and people can die....Don't be shy about even recommending AFCI / GFCI breakers to an old panel, I do... Anything that can prevent a fire, I recommend.

There may be more red flags than the outlets having open grounds.... What kind of main panel did the house have? Did it have old push-matic style breakers (these are known to stick) , did it have a Zinsco or FPE panel (these are very problematic) Were GFCI's mssing in required locations? Two-wire ungrounded tin-coated wiring and other issues noted here are very common during the 50's era...

I would focus on all the issues, and refer to a licensed electrician for futher evaluation of the entire system if it possessed these original components. Wiring a home with new wiring is not cheap! And replacing a panel is also not cheap! Protect yourself and your clients...

And by the way, Porter Valley Software InspectVue program does an awesome job detailing these defects and upgrades... the report language is awesome! If you need the program let me know, I will save you $150 off the retail price.

Just my thoughts....
Justin
www.americandreamhomeinspection.net

[dbucknavich]

Is the following statement accurate concerning the above condition?

Thank you.

The house has both 2 and 3 prong outlets. The difference between the two is the protection of a grounding conductor in the 3 prong outlets, which provides protection from electrocution. However, throughout the house, several 3 prong outlets existed without this benefit, which is known as an open ground. This condition provides a false sense of security when using an appliance or device with a 3 prong plug. The 2 prong outlets are not required to be replaced, but you should be aware that only devices with 2 prong plugs should be used in these outlets. You should consult a qualified electrical contractor to evaluate the system with remedy as necessary, which should include upgrading the system to current building and safety standards.

[Greg Fretwell]

Assuming they test "no ground" that is a good explaination. You can also throw in the GFCI option.
There are some houses that old that will have a grounded wiring method.

[dbucknavich]

Originally Posted by Greg Fretwell

Assuming they test "no ground" that is a good explaination. You can also throw in the GFCI option.
There are some houses that old that will have a grounded wiring method.

Yes Greg, that is how they test. Thanks.