Are electricians supposed to use these tools as per 70E?

[jtedesco1]

Originally Posted by gbeaumont

Hi Joe, appologies, I was just checking ASTM 2018 for that verbiage when you posted, no wonder I couldn't find it!!

Regards

Gerry

No problem, I don't have a copy of ASTM 2018.

Now with the following in mind:

".... buildings with residential units operated for profit, mixed use buildings, strip malls, motels, factories, storage facilities, restaurants, and office buildings."

Many are supplied by 480Y/277 volts 3 phase, 4 wire secondaries, and will require GFPE for some services 230.95, etc; factories may include industrial processes with the same systems, and special grounding and bonding rules apply, and restaurants which may also have systems with voltages over 250 volts to ground.

A SME "Subject Matter Expert" may be needed as Joe pointed out earlier.

I am encouraged by the commercial inspection areas being discussed recently, and want to help whenever I can if I can share some of my experiences.

Talk about the roof top, the basements and equipment rooms, elevator machine rooms, and top and bottom of them, bathrooms, kitchens and so many more.

I am only trying to expand on the commercial areas. I read here on the board where an inspector was denied access to the space above a ceiling, and that as you may remember, was one of my suggestions long ago, try searching for the word "denied" in the NEC

[Greg Fretwell]

If you guys are poking around in service equipment there is plenty of arc flash injury potential.

[Blaine Wiley]

Man, I don't put nothing into the service panel. I pull the cover an L K only!!

I get an allergic reaction to electric shock!

[Paul W. Abernathy]

lol....the SOP clearly states the HI should not poke anything into the electrical panel. While the risk of arc flash is reduced in general when dealing with what the "SCOPE" of a "HOME" inspector does it can be a VERY real issue when dealing in commerical inspections.

With that said....no not every think a bolted fault in residential equipment can't happen....because it can and with older equipment and the poor AIC ratings of the older equipment an newly placed transformers near them.....it is always a possible issue to be aware of even in residential environments.

Also the NFPA 70E is simply a guidelines to compliance with OSHA for the most post, the information contained in the NFPA 70E aids our fellow electricians in identifying electrical hazards and how to comply with safety in the workplace protocol versus other options like advanced IEEE and Software calculations.

It is important that when I have done my classes for NACHI members at the convention and the few we did around the country for Tom Raush that safety is a key component, having a voltage ticker handy, being aware of the environement and look before you touch is key.

I have not taken it but I believe Joe F's safety course probably covers the basics of safety for the home inspector well....again it is important but not brain surgery.....be alert, be aware and be careful....

I know or a fact over 400 electricians ( and normal folk ) die a year from electrical hazards, very few if any home inspectors die from shock.....because as a whole the industry does a fairly good job in making them aware of safety concerns on the basis of their allowed protocol for "Home" inspections.

Just adding to the conversation...have at it fella's...

[Paul W. Abernathy]

OH....since we are on safety and electricity and all that jazz.....here is a nice read....

Board of Governors of Exhibition Place fined $100,000
for health and safety violation

SCARBOROUGH, ON, Sept. 11 /CNW/ - The Board of Governors of Exhibition Place, a local board of the City of Toronto that oversees Exhibition Place, was fined $100,000 on September 10, 2007 for a violation of the Occupational Health and Safety Act that resulted in serious burn injuries to two employees.
On August 17, 2005, two electrical workers were investigating the source of a partial power loss to a concession stand when there was an electrical explosion and the workers' clothing caught on fire. Fire extinguishers were used to put out the fire. Both workers suffered second and third degree burns.
At the time of the incident one of the workers had been using a screwdriver trying to pry a fuse from a switch terminal. The incident occurred at an electrical substation at Exhibition Place at the Canadian National Exhibition (CNE) grounds in downtown Toronto.
A Ministry of Labour investigation found the worker who was using the screwdriver had turned an external switch door handle to the "off" position, but the internal switch mechanism was still in the "on" position. There was a live electrical path at the switch terminal resulting in the explosion when the screwdriver contacted the fuse. Neither of the workers had been provided with, or were wearing any, personal protective equipment.
The Board of Governors of Exhibition Place pleaded guilty, as an employer, to failing to take the reasonable precaution of ensuring the two workers were provided with personal protective equipment to protect them from the hazard of electrical shock and burn. This was contrary to Section 25(2)(h) of the act.
The fine was imposed by Justice of the Peace Vasillio Fatsis of the Ontario Court of Justice in Scarborough. In addition, the court imposed a 25-per-cent victim fine surcharge, as required by the Provincial Offences Act. The surcharge is credited to a special provincial government fund to assist victims of crime.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

So as I tell the guys in my NEC code update seminars...if you do not think the term " Qualified Persons " is real....and demand they have safety training to meet the requirement of the verbiage of the NEC in regards to being a " Qualified Person " then read that article....

For " Electricians "...Make sure your company GETS the equipment and if they EVER ask you to work on something live..present them with an Energized Work Permit....and tell them they have to sign it and give reason for the request......putting a name on paper will sometimes end that discussion and possibly save a life.

Moral of the Story.....don't work on live parts if it is not needed....and if you do....then do it RIGHT.....get tools like Joe T posted along with personal protection and the whole ball of wax.

[jtedesco1]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

So as I tell the guys in my NEC code update seminars...if you do not think the term " Qualified Persons " is real....and demand they have safety training to meet the requirement of the verbiage of the NEC in regards to being a " Qualified Person " then read that article....

For " Electricians "...Make sure your company GETS the equipment and if they EVER ask you to work on something live..present them with an Energized Work Permit....and tell them they have to sign it and give reason for the request......putting a name on paper will sometimes end that discussion and possibly save a life.

Moral of the Story.....don't work on live parts if it is not needed....and if you do....then do it RIGHT.....get tools like Joe T posted along with personal protection and the whole ball of wax.

Agreed! I was planning on purchasing the set above until I discovered the price.
List Price:$2,036.00
I wonder what those tools would cost without the specific coverings where the typical insulated handles, etc. was supplied?

Here's a set I found for around $350.00

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Nice set......not really going to compare with the ratings of the first set you posted as those from kline are not going to offer any shock protection really...but you know electricians work with them all the time and dont even think of....what if I damaged my normal lineman pliers during a rough in when nothing is live...and now I grab them to work on LIVE equipment..they have no idea what can happen through a simple pin hole in the insulation.....

Hopefully IF they are foolish enough to use the kline versions above that they atleast have full PPE protection...they just might need it.

Those above are " everyday " electricians tools versus the ones that are truly insulated and rated for the environment........

[jtedesco1]

Hey!

Can we use these tools instead?

http://www.youtube.com/v/Mx9A8rhPuXw&rel=1

Total Cost, maybe around $20.00 at the dollar store!

Here's a picture that Marc sent to me last year:

[Greg Fretwell]

Those in #22 are not "insulated" handles. They are only comfort grip handles. The first set are listed as insulated, big difference. IBM had a big push to educate our techs that simply dipping tool handles in vinyl does not make then insulated and you also need a ridge at the edge to keep your hand from sliding off into the uninsulated metal.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Yep......A huge difference in the two sets of tools....sad thing is some electricians feel they have to work on things live......diagnostics is one thing but PPE is required for both when dealing with live parts....

There is simply no excuse a company can use if they send a guy to work on equipment....and then ask him to do it while still live.....and give them no proper equipment....i would love to be expert witness on that case....

[relliott]

Never had the guts for working live.
Always pulled off the meter head , when running a sidecar.

[gmortensen]

I have worked as an industrial electrician for 10 years and we only where those suits and PPE during our test after lockout. We confirm zero energy and take that stuff off and continue the job, with our klein tools. Never ever ever do anything live. By the way the klein tools are the best IMO. I do like to wear glasses and gloves when I pull the cover off a panel though. I was zapped once when I was an apprentice, by some shoemaker wiring and have been chicken s#$t ever since. Keeps me alive.