Excused "Ganged Neutrals" from Electrician

[Michael W. Gault]

Wrote up and kicked back... everyday it seems...

I clipped this from the pdf and didn't show his name...

Maybe he knows something different than


NEC 408.41 Each grounded conductor shall terminate within a panel board in an individual terminal that is not used for any other conductor. (Bold is mine)


Another day...

[Michael W. Gault]

Picture too big.

His statement:

"The National Electric Code allows this wiring method in homes not required to have an outside disconnect. I checked all of the connections and they were tight"

Is he correct?

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

His statement doesn't make any sense.

in homes not required to have an outside disconnect

This has no relevance to the issue of "ganged neutrals."

[Michael W. Gault]

Below is what I sent the client (buyer)




Here’s a picture to explain and a quote from the NEC and another to show why they should not share a lug…

NEC 408.41 Each grounded conductor shall terminate within a panel board in an individual terminal
that is not used for any other conductor. (Bold is mine)


A Grounded Conductor is a Neutral (White wire) a Grounding Conductor is a bare wire.


They’re not correct and his NEC ‘quote’ is wrong.

-Mike

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

Originally Posted by mgault

A Grounded Conductor is a Neutral (White wire) a Grounding Conductor is a bare wire.

I would have omitted this part, but I agree with the rest of your assessment.

[Michael W. Gault]

My wife always says "Less is More"

or that I "Talk like a teenage girl on the telephone"...

Don't know where that came from; we have two grown sons...

[Greg Fretwell]

My bet is his reference to the outside disconnect was his way of saying this was not a sub panel and the grounds can be on the neutral bar. Maybe he doesn't know they codified the "individual terminal" language for grounded conductors in 2002. Plenty of electricians doubled up the neutral and ground for each circuit and lots of inspectors passed it. (not me, I was a Tedesco student)

[Michael W. Gault]

Originally Posted by Greg Fretwell

My bet is his reference to the outside disconnect was his way of saying this was not a sub panel and the grounds can be on the neutral bar. Maybe he doesn't know they codified the "individual terminal" language for grounded conductors in 2002. Plenty of electricians doubled up the neutral and ground for each circuit and lots of inspectors passed it. (not me, I was a Tedesco student)

Still seeing it nearly everyday (okay twice a week now, they're doing it correct in most New Construction)

[Erby Crofutt]

Here's what I tell em. They can like it or not!

======
The problem(s) discovered in the panel such as

• Item # 1 yada yada
• Item # 2 yada yada
• more than one “grounded conductor” (neutral /white) wire per screw on the neutral bus bar (double tapped/lugged) Each “grounded conductor” is supposed to have it’s very own screw on the bus bar, no other “grounded conductor” or “ungrounded conductor” (bare copper wire) should be under the screw with the “grounded conductor”.
  {Some electricians (who haven't done their homework) will tell you that it is OK to have more than one neutral (white) wire under a screw on the bus bar. They are wrong. It has long (at least as far back as 1967) been required by manufacturer's instructions and Underwriters Laboratories Standard 67 for panelboards. See this link for a narrative description of the reason for single neutral wire - single screw. Double Lugged Neutral Narrative Also see this link for a visual interpretation. Double Lugged Neutrals Visual}. Ensure the electrician is familiar with UL Standard 67 requirements

and any other problems that an electrician may discover while performing repairs need correcting. I recommend a licensed electrician repair as needed.
===========

So goes life. You can lead a horse to water. You can shove his head under the water, but you an't make them drink.

[ccurrins]

Like this one built in 2003. Nice work, but a little lazy when there were plenty of screws left open on the bar.

[Greg Fretwell]

That is a guy who thinks that is the "right" way. I know it was a very popular way to wire circuits. They thought grouping them was a good thing for some reason. That guy even twisted them together. It certainly wasn't easier or faster

[Speedy Petey]

In NY this is not expressly forbidden in resi work. We follow the NY Residential Code and the wording in NEC 408.41 is absent.
You could quote the 408.41 all day long and you'd still be wrong by calling it out. I've even had one of the head inspectors in my area confirm this when I questioned HIM about it.
90% of the other guys I see do it this way.
Maybe SC is similar?

That said..... I used to do this in every panel. It makes for a nice neat panel and there is no searching for the paired ground and neutral when working on a circuit. It has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with "laziness".

In recent years I have stopped doing it this way. Mainly because it is in the NEC and it is one less thing that can be questioned later. Obviously the NY code is lacking in some areas so I fill in with the NEC when I can.

[Barry Adair]

this method must be infectious...just yesterday...some of the grounds aren't under their lug screw just twisted around the rest...looked like homer had been here

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Speedy...what about 408.21 when it was in the 2002 NEC? Did NY also ignore its statement then as well?

[Michael Larson]

Even if NY ignored both how does that let them ignore UL67 and the mfgs. instructions?