Excused "Ganged Neutrals" from Electrician

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Ahhh..Michael knew exactly where I was going with that leading question...lol..

Basically the intent of 110.3(B) says that equipment should be installed as the manufacture intends and regardless of UL 67 which supports the intent...the manufactures never allowed the "grounded" conductors to be grouped in a single terminal.

I agree it is seen alot...in fact my own brother does it...and knowing him probably still does it......he is an OLD dog that wont learn new tricks...or he learned the BAD trick someone back years ago and still does not understand it...lol

The intent of the addition in the 2002 NEC regarding 408.21 only added to shine the light on a problem that has existed for years....it also the spawn of many new statements about ensuring a reliable "grounded" connection in later code cycles.....

Now practical wise....if both conductors are the same size and properly torqued....should not really see issues with it but is indeed a violation of the NEC which is a minimum safety standard....However, if installed improperly with different size conductors which would not allow proper torqueing and such and just plain poor connections as well as installed improperly by home owners...then I can most certainly see the hazard.

As for me......I always call it out because it is a violation ( when I am doing code inspections )....kinda like de-rating conductors in an area with a temp rise......never seen those conductors fail unless over a heat source...but we still have to de-rate.....so being codie its a violation but as others have said....being code wrong may not always make it a blazing hazard RIGHT NOW anyway....but down the road it could be.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

With that said..it brings another thought to mind...

As electricians we install for TODAY.....meaning we are not required to assume what someone will do in the future. In other words if a circuit breaker in a standard panel is less than 6' 7" to the center of the switch we are fine...but if their are openings above that breaker that are not used and WOULD be above 6' 7" if used....we can't call out because the code says switches and circuit breakers over 6' 7" in this example...and none are ( right now anyway ) so we have to pass it......

Could it violate the CODE at a later date....YEP...but the CODE is not retrocative...

AS a home inspector we have to see into the future all the time, assume the intent of a person and provide SAFETY advice on the potential future outcome. We have to PEER into the darkness....YET our inspections are only a snap shot in time.....more specific to that DAY of the inspection....

Interesting enough......HI's are expected to forcast the future while some electricians only install for the day.....I personally LOVE doing both as it is challenging to wear multiple hats.

[Speedy Petey]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

Speedy...what about 408.21 when it was in the 2002 NEC? Did NY also ignore its statement then as well?

NY has never been under the 2002 NEC, even for commercial.
Keep in mind I am only talking about residential in this thread.

I am not sure what the exact wording in UL 67 is. Similarly I can't remember if the Mfg instructions refer to grounds or neutrals at all. I do know most allow two or three conductors of the same size per hole.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Ahh..got ya fella..no worries mate......since I have a close relationship with a certain manufacturer I have asked them this question directly and they tell me that while their label inside the panel cover allows for multiple equipment grounding conductors...they have never allow multiple grounded conductors to share a terminal.

In their words...since a terminal is rated for the allowance of conductors, unless they specifically make reference to allowing more than a single conductor ( as they do with the EGC's via the inserted label ) then only a single conductor is allowed per termination.

[Speedy Petey]

Well, I like to think I always admit when I am wrong. And I was wrong.

I just went out and checked the cover instructions of a new panel. It does state in that multiple conductors are to be used for equipment grounding purposes only.

Like I said, I stopped this practice several years ago.
It is still very popular with my peers though. Especially when our inspectors have no problem with it.

Sorry for the confusion on my part.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

No confusion my brother.........You are awesome !!!!

Everytime you speak on here the people here should listen.........Glad You Are Here my friend !!!!

Sad thing about some municipal inspectors is....we are relying on them to educate our future electricians and many need education themselves......