How far from the outlet can the GFCI be?

[Kenton H. Shepard, CMI]

1. Is there a safe maximum distance between the main panel and the home it protects?

2. Is there a safe maximum distance between a GFCI breaker and the outlet it protects?

[Speedy Petey]

1) I don't understand the question. The panel must be IN/ON the home it protects. Any other situation would be absurdly cumbersome.

2) No, not really. If the GFI protection is remote, a sricker should be used on what it's protecting.

[Donald R. Peterson]

Square D's answer

Page 2


http://ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/Cir...840-435-03.pdf

[Greg Fretwell]

The service disconnect has to be on the property but not necessarily on a building. Each building does require a disconnect though. I have inspected "may pole" instlations where they have a 3r service disconnect on a pole in the middle of the property and radial feeders going to each building. That is best for mitigating voltage drop.

The "length" on the GFCI circuit is to reduce niusanse tripping, not a safety issue. If the circuit is too long they fear you will get too much coupling to ground. I have not seen that at my house. I have a long circuit in my screen cage hitting all the lights and a long circuit down to my boat lift. I don't have a tripping problem on either of them. Both have several hundred feet of wire in pipe.

[Speedy Petey]

I answered #1 the way I did because he specifically stated main "panel", not main disconnect. Now I wonder which he means.

Like Greg said though, even if there is a "main disconnect" somewhere on the property, the structure MUST have it's own service disconnect on it or just inside of it.

[mthomas2]

The Cliff Notes version of the Square D doc Donald cites above:

NOTE: To minimize nuisance tripping:

• Do not connect circuit breaker to swimming pool equipment installed before adoption of the 1965 National Electrical Code.

• Do not connect circuit breaker to electric ranges or clothes dryers
whose frames are grounded by connection to a neutral conductor.

• Do not connect circuit breaker to more than 250 ft. (76 m) of load
conductor for the total one-way run.

[Kenton H. Shepard, CMI]

This was a situation in which a sub-panel (no GFCI breakers) for a detached garage was located on another building with approximately 100 feet between the sub-panel and the garage.
Underground conductors ran to 2 GFCI outlets in the garage which protected garage wiring. I was wondering if the breakers in the sub-panel could be replaced with GFCI breakers to protect the garage.

[Larry D. Kage]

Originally Posted by kshepard

This was a situation in which a sub-panel (no GFCI breakers) for a detached garage was located on another building with approximately 100 feet between the sub-panel and the garage.
Underground conductors ran to 2 GFCI outlets in the garage which protected garage wiring. I was wondering if the breakers in the sub-panel could be replaced with GFCI breakers to protect the garage.

Now that would be inconvenient!

[Mike Whitt]

Originally Posted by kshepard

This was a situation in which a sub-panel (no GFCI breakers) for a detached garage was located on another building with approximately 100 feet between the sub-panel and the garage.

Originally Posted by kshepard

Underground conductors ran to 2 GFCI outlets in the garage which protected garage wiring. I was wondering if the breakers in the sub-panel could be replaced with GFCI breakers to protect the garage.

Are you saying that there is a set of feeders and two branch circuits feeding this garage?

Originally Posted by 2005 NEC

225.30 Number of Supplies.

Originally Posted by 2005 NEC

Where more than one building or other structure is on the same property and under single management, each additional building or other structure that is served by a branch circuit or feeder on the load side of the service disconnecting means shall be supplied by only one feeder or branch circuit unless permitted in 225.30(A) through (E).

[mthomas2]

1) So - to be sure I understand - you cannot (for example) separate outlet and lighting circuits to the garage, you would have to run feeders to a load-side panel in the garage instead.

2) Are any of the conditions listed in 225.30(A-E) likely relevant to Home Inspectors?

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Are you by any chance the Mike Whitt who grew up Roseland?

[Greg Fretwell]

(A) Special Conditions. Additional feeders or branch circuits shall be permitted to supply the following:
(1) Fire pumps
(2) Emergency systems
(3) Legally required standby systems
(4) Optional standby systems
(5) Parallel power production systems
(B) Special Occupancies. By special permission, additional feeders or branch circuits shall be permitted for the following:
(1) Multiple-occupancy buildings where there is no space available for supply equipment accessible to all occupants, or
(2) A single building or other structure sufficiently large to make two or more supplies necessary.
(C) Capacity Requirements. Additional feeders or branch circuits shall be permitted where the capacity requirements are in excess of 2000 amperes at a supply voltage of 600 volts or less.
(D) Different Characteristics. Additional feeders or branch circuits shall be permitted for different voltages, frequencies, or phases or for different uses, such as control of outside lighting from multiple locations.
(E) Documented Switching Procedures. Additional feeders or branch circuits shall be permitted to supply installations under single management where documented safe switching procedures are established and maintained for disconnection.

[Mike Whitt]

Originally Posted by mthomas2

1) So - to be sure I understand - you cannot (for example) separate outlet and lighting circuits to the garage, you would have to run feeders to a load-side panel in the garage instead.

Yes, a multiwire circuit can be installed to a detached garage as long as there is a disconnect that is rated as service equipment installed at the garage.
Article 225 was introduced to the NEC in the early 1970s and the requirement for a disconnect was entered in the 1993 code cycle, 225-8 with 225-8(c) requiring the disconnect to be rated as service equipment.

In today’s code (2005) 225.36 has an exception which states;
Exception: For garages and outbuildings on residential property, a snap switch or a set of 3-way or 4-way snap switches shall be permitted as the disconnecting means.
What we need to understand is that the part of this exception that limits the use of these switches is “A snap switch” and “A set of 3-way or 4-way snap switches” which clearly denotes a single switch or a single set of 3-way or 4-way switches.
225.39 states what size these circuits must be.

Originally Posted by mthomas2

2) Are any of the conditions listed in 225.30(A-E) likely relevant to Home Inspectors?

None of these sections would apply to a residential application except the possible of fire or generator circuits.

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Originally Posted by mthomas2

Are you by any chance the Mike Whitt who grew up Roseland?

I was born in High Point NC and moved to Wilkes County NC to live out the first 19 years of my life. At 19 I moved back to High Point and have lived within 50 miles of this area till this day.
Rumor has it that some of my ancestors may have ended up at area 51 a few years back but if they did the government is keeping a tight lid on their where-a-bouts.

Wait a minute you said Roseland, NC not Roswell Nv., LOL

I do have distant relatives scattered all over the state of NC and Va. The family moved to the mountains of Va. in the 1800s and migrated south over the state of NC for the next century.
Over the past 50 years my brothers and first cousins have moved as far West and North as Maple Falls, Washington and as far East and South as Key West Florida.
No I am not this man although I have been there.

[Kenton H. Shepard, CMI]

Sorry... one set of feeders exist only. They run from a Non-GFCI sub-panel out back of the main building to the double garage (serving separate units of a duplex). Also on this circuit are exterior walkway lighting for the duplex structure. Feeders run to two GFCI's in the garage (no separate sub-panel), and then to a couple of outlets, switches, lights and overhead door openers, one at each side of the garage.

[Greg Fretwell]

Mike, the aliens landed in Roswell NM, not Nevada.

[Mike Whitt]

Originally Posted by kshepard

Sorry... one set of feeders exist only. Feeders run to two GFCI's in the garage (no separate sub-panel), and then to a couple of outlets, switches, lights and overhead door openers, one at each side of the garage.

These are not feeders they are branch circuits.

Feeders will always have overcurrent on both ends.

Branch circuits will have overcurrent on the line end.

Service conductors will have overcurrent on the load end