How far would you go!!

[David C. Macy]

I posted information pertaining to an exterior disconnect & wanted to follow up with my inspection that I performed today.

This is the thread I started. http://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/main-disconnect-11630/

So the question I posted on my thread tittle today is as a Home Inspector (Not an electrician) how far would you go to inspect this exterior.

1) Open exterior cover & then remove the 2 screws.
2) There is a GFCI in the cover & you need to remove 2 screws that are stripped. GFCI didnt work & I figured it was there for the utility company as the home had a front & back GFCI & this would not be needed by the home owner. I reported as inoperable
3) The interior cover you need to pry to remove. Will not lift out with installed handle assemply.

I stopped at this point as the cover would not come out with moderate pressure.

Now to the interior panel. This appeared to be a remote distribution panel.

As you can see from the photos the white romex was added on by the homeowner to the basement. He used 14 gauge to 20 amp breakers. He also ran 2 wires in one hole so I knew it was done by a handyman.

Question. Can a siemens breaker be installed in a cutler hammer panel?

Thanks

[Speedy Petey]

On the inside, the two cables into a singel NM connector is prefectly fine, safe and legal.
The #14 on a 20a is a blatant violation and not exactly safe.
The Siemens breaker may very well be legal in that panel. A slong as it is rated to use in a BR panel.

[Thomas H. Dietrich]

On the inside, the two cables into a singel NM connector is prefectly fine, safe and legal.

IMHO, might be beyond a HI task. The rule is 1 cable per connector unless the manufacturer says its ok. So, from what I do, it's a c-500 or Ai's Black buttons, I wouldn't know off the top of my head it it was ok. Might want to defer er the whole electrical system, since the collection of 'flaws' is growing.

The #14 on a 20a is a blatant violation and not exactly safe.

Very true if it's 14# gauge. Don't' fall into the color trap, manufacturers changed to colors to try and non-reading inspectors and workers to stop over loading the wires. Take the time to read the information on the jacket, you might find people using NM instead of NM-B, and it might be 12/2 romex, just a couple years old, prior to coloring.

The Siemens breaker may very well be legal in that panel. A slong as it is rated to use in a BR panel.

"Slong"?

Check the inside, usually there is a disclaimer as to what breakers are allowed in the panel. Also, I've seen some people use 'off' brands of breakers to bypass the panel manufacturers designs to limit the use of tandem breakers. Count the number of breakers, this panel could also be overloaded, per code.

Just thinking out loud...

tom

[Speedy Petey]

About the connectors. I don't think I've ever seen a two-screw (typical) metallic NM cable connector that was not rated for at least two cables.
This is SOP for me so I can leave as many unused K-O's as I can. I HATE it when I come across a panel with no available K-O's and every damn NM connector has only one cable. AGRH!

[Thomas H. Dietrich]

Warning readers, This has gone a tangent....

About the connectors. I don't think I've ever seen a two-screw (typical) metallic NM cable connector that was not rated for at least two cables.

I was warned about some clamps coming from "India" that had almost no ratings and the "finger", on the movable part, that would pierce the jacket, too easily.

This is SOP for me so I can leave as many unused K-O's as I can. I HATE it when I come across a panel with no available K-O's and every damn NM connector has only one cable. AGRH!

Ah personally I hate you. I love when I come to a panel and to run a new circuit, I can just fish my cable through an existing clamp. Saves me time, and material.

tom

[rromoser]

I might be wrong, but it seems to me that only some of the plastic "RX" connectors are UL listed for 2 cables.

[salexander]

Funny thing is while debating the proper use of a romex connector on the white romex, none of the yellows even have connectors.

[Marc D. Shunk]

Originally Posted by salexander

Funny thing is while debating the proper use of a romex connector on the white romex, none of the yellows even have connectors.

It might appear that way, but I just barely detect that they're installed with "black buttons". Arlington Industries is one of the main manufacturers of this type of NM connector.



According to the manufacturers chart, they take:
1-14/2 to 1-10/2
2-14/2 to 2-10/2
1-14/2 and 1-12/2
1-14/3 to 1-10/3
2-14/3 to 2-12/3
1-14/2 and 1-10/2
1-12/2 and 1-10/2
1-14/3 and 1-12/3

A fella would really be doing something to get two 12-3's in those black button connectors, but it is permitted.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Love them connectors.......its all I use now. Anyone that works with them knows once the wire is in...its TOUGH to get back out, it is possible but you have to be careful not to rip the jacket.

Got a WHOLE box of em....

Yep..that panel has those type of connectors..perfectly fine.

[Thomas H. Dietrich]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

Love them connectors...

Same here, saves time, weighs nothing, and the price is right. I don't like is, newbs who think they can just yank out a cable from them, because their plastic. I've seen home run sheaths damaged because of newbs.

tom

P.S. Been waiting for the local supply shops to get the RACO's version in, they connect from the inside out. Wouldn't mind having a few of those. <crossing fingers>

[Paul W. Abernathy]

I hear ya Tom....lets just say...I wish I had invented those freakin connectors.....simple...yet effective....DANG i missed the boat on that invention.

[Marc D. Shunk]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

I hear ya Tom....lets just say...I wish I had invented those freakin connectors.....simple...yet effective....DANG i missed the boat on that invention.

Arlington invents some of the coolest stuff. I'm glad to see a "flush" romex connector. Often, people would omit any kind of connector for coming in the back of kitchen exhaust hoods and fluorescent strip lights over closet doors. The flush type romex connector is more palletable to installers for those applications.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

I agree Marc.......love some of the side screw boxes they have come up with.....makes it easy for retro's in already finished areas.

[Speedy Petey]

Originally Posted by rromoser

I might be wrong, but it seems to me that only some of the plastic "RX" connectors are UL listed for 2 cables.

Look harder.
Arlington 841, an industry standard, is rated for several combinations of three cables, not just two.

1-14/2 & 1-14/3, or 1-14/2 to 10/2 NM

1-14/2 & 1-12/3, or 1-14/3 to 10/3 NM

1-12/2 & 1-14/3, or 2-14/2 to 10/2 NM

1-12/2 & 1-12/3, or 1-14/2 & 1-12/2 NM

2-14/2 & 1-14/3, or 1-14/2 & 1-10/2 NM

2-14/2 & 1-12/3, or 1-12/2 & 1-10/2 NM


or 3-14/2 NM



BTW, Arlington is one of my favorite companies as well. They have saved the day more times than I care to remember.