Federal Pacific - The definitive answer

[Bruce A. King]

Greg,

What would be the difference in putting it on an electrician or putting it on an insurance company if neither does anything? Are you saying there is a hotline you call to get the house condemned when you find an FP SL panel?

[Billy Boerner]

Originally Posted by bking

Bill, you have to include in your report the fact that opinions will vary and more important, include the fact that most electricians think flipping a breaker off and back on in some way performed a "test". The cost of doing a real test to every breaker will be close to just replacing the panel. All breakers that pass a real test could fail 10 minutes later so it is a wasted effort.

Greg and Bruce...

Can I see the exact wording you two put in your reports regarding FP panels?

[Greg Bell]

The panels are manufactured by Federal Pacific. These panels have a history of problems and are considered a safety hazard. Consult with a licensed electrician for panel upgrade.

[Greg Bell]

Originally Posted by bking

Greg,

What would be the difference in putting it on an electrician or putting it on an insurance company if neither does anything? Are you saying there is a hotline you call to get the house condemned when you find an FP SL panel?

All homes over 30 years old require a four point inspection for insurance. A panel over 30 years old is going to need upgraded if you want insurance. All FP panels are over 30 years old.

I had a home that was built in 1975. It had a 150 amp Bryant panel. The insurance company made the owner put in a new panel. They also made him repipe the house since the copper water supply was put in in 1975.

[Billy Boerner]

Thanks Greg. If you see a FP panel do you even take the cover off and look at it?

[Greg Bell]

Originally Posted by bboerner

Thanks Greg. If you see a FP panel do you even take the cover off and look at it?

Yes I take off the cover. The only panel I don't take off the cover on is a Zinsco.

[Billy Boerner]

Originally Posted by gbell

Yes I take off the cover. The only panel I don't take off the cover on is a Zinsco.

Why take off the cover on a FP and not a Zinsco? I always thought it was unsafe to remove a FP panel. Am I wrong?

[Greg Bell]

Personal experience.

[Billy Boerner]

Quite often the only place where arcing is visible is behind the breakers, on the bus stabs or sockets, and to see this one must remove the breakers.

The licensed electrician is the only authority to determine the appropriate action.

Above is why I don't remove the panel. What's your thoughts?

[Bruce A. King]

Originally Posted by bboerner

Greg and Bruce...

Can I see the exact wording you two put in your reports regarding FP panels?

Here is my latest version and it must be effective, I have seen a few sellers replace these for my clients, one client walkd over other issues and the seller replaced the panel anyway. He also replaced the Zinsco that was outside.


Investigate and Repair: A Federal Pacific Electric Company "Stab-Lok" electrical panel is in use. Some common problems that may be present in these panels are not always visible during an inspection. Technical load testing of breakers and full removal of breakers is necessary to truly inspect these panels. Very few electricians are capable or willing to perform the testing functions in a complete and technical manner. Turning a breaker off and back on is in no way anywhere near a “check” or a “test”. The cost to have technical breaker testing done is not considered prudent on old equipment.

These panels have been noted to present a latent hazard and fire danger by malfunctioning under certain conditions resulting in a faulty breaker which may not trip under load, failure of the bus connections due to inadequate bending space for the service entry conductors and potential arcing problems.

There is controversy over these panels. While the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) refused to recall the panels, they also refused to state that the panels were safe. Some electricians say the panels are safe, other electricians say they are not.

It is recommend that you consult a qualified, licensed electrician to determine any needed repairs/replacement to estimate costs and to perform any work deemed necessary. You should make sure that the electrician is familiar with these panels and is experienced in working with older electrical systems. My opinion is to always replace these panels. This replacement recommendation is based on my understanding of the issues. Everyone has a different level of risk acceptance.

Further information on this equipment can be obtained at the following internet web sites.

http://www.ismypanelsafe.com

Federal Pacific Electric (FPE) Panels, A Summary
http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/fpepanel.htm

CPSC Closes Investigation Of FPE Circuit Breakers And Provides Safety
Information For Consumers
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml83/83008.html

Electricians and Home Inspectors discuss FPE:
http://www.codecheck.com/FPE_breakers.htm

[Bruce A. King]

Originally Posted by bboerner

Quite often the only place where arcing is visible is behind the breakers, on the bus stabs or sockets, and to see this one must remove the breakers.

The licensed electrician is the only authority to determine the appropriate action.

Above is why I don't remove the panel. What's your thoughts?

You don't have to remove it if you feel its too dangerous but you could miss some aluminum wiring that might be visible in there or some other immediate fire hazard..

[Billy Boerner]

Originally Posted by bking

You don't have to remove it if you feel its too dangerous but you could miss some aluminum wiring that might be visible in there or some other immediate fire hazard..

Agreed however wouldn't you agree that from what I stated a licensed electrician needs to remove the panel and the breakers for a proper inspection? We can't remove breakers so why even remove the cover? Let the electrician inspect it.

Thanks for the FP info. I really appreciate it.

[Joe Farsetta]

The bus has absolutely nothing to do with the problem regarding FP. This problem extends way beyond Stab Lock

[Billy Boerner]

Originally Posted by jfarsetta

The bus has absolutely nothing to do with the problem regarding FP. This problem extends way beyond Stab Lock

Joe with the information you have should be opening the cover whatsoever?

[rbrady]

Originally Posted by bboerner

Agreed however wouldn't you agree that from what I stated a licensed electrician needs to remove the panel and the breakers for a proper inspection? We can't remove breakers so why even remove the cover? Let the electrician inspect it.

I have seen many (50?) FPE panels and I would be surprised if even half of them have been replaced. I have never had an issue removing the dead-front cover. I have heard of people having breakers falling out, but it has never happened to me - not even close. Most of the panels I have seen acutally look pretty good. I ALWAYS warn about FPE problems and recommend evaluation.
I believe you should remove the cover to look for typical issues. You may even find something like melted insulation, scorching, etc that may actually convince someone to do something about it.