Federal Pacific - The definitive answer

[James E. Braun, CMI]

Looking forward to your article, Joe.

Billy, if you do not feel safe opening them, then do not open them. Also note in your report that the buyer needs to check with their insurance company for insurability.

[Billy Boerner]

Originally Posted by jfarsetta

The bus has absolutely nothing to do with the problem regarding FP. This problem extends way beyond Stab Lock

Joe what is the actual problem?

[Billy Boerner]

Originally Posted by jbraun

Looking forward to your article, Joe.

Billy, if you do not feel safe opening them, then do not open them. Also note in your report that the buyer needs to check with their insurance company for insurability.

I feel safe I've actually opened all so far. My point it if we can't see all defects then why open them? Also Joe states the bus has nothing to do with anything. Why would information about the buss be so widely distrubuted across the net? Confusing to say the least. What is the exact problem and should we be referring them or not?

[rbrady]

Originally Posted by bboerner

Also Joe states the bus has nothing to do with anything. Why would information about the buss be so widely distrubuted across the net? Confusing to say the least. What is the exact problem and should we be referring them or not?

My understanding of the problem is the breakers do not trip when they should. Supposedly you can even turn off a breaker and it may not dis-connect power.

[Bruce A. King]

Originally Posted by bboerner

Agreed however wouldn't you agree that from what I stated a licensed electrician needs to remove the panel and the breakers for a proper inspection? We can't remove breakers so why even remove the cover? Let the electrician inspect it.

Thanks for the FP info. I really appreciate it.

What if the electrician does not see any burnt aluminum wiring or his client does not want to do anything about it, then six months later the house catches on fire. No explanation will cover you, you simply did not have the aluminum wiring in your report, that in itself will give an attorney a reason to come after you. The outcome does not matter, you have "lost" already at this point. If you feel unsafe then make it very clear in your report as to what you did not inspect AND what may be present there. I would advise against moving into a house with FPE or Zinsco and especially with UNINSPECTED old panels of this sort.


I had the cover off a Zinsco once when the A/C turned on, sparks shot out from behind the breaker. I looked real close and could see no evidence of arcing while the unit was running or while it was off only during that initial high load period. The seller was a "certified Lexus mechanic" and came unglued because he did not understand how I could have found that problem.
He also came unglued because he had to pay for a 2nd trip because I would not entertain his viscious dog that was tied up in the garage.

[Bruce A. King]

Due to the age of these panels, its really a moot point, they are nearing the age where they should be replaced anyway regardless of the brand.

[rbrady]

This is the article I use in my reports. I think it is a well presented argument that is not as alarmist as the ny-inspect site.

http://www.bradyinspects.com/files/FPE_codecheck.pdf

[Billy Boerner]

Originally Posted by bking

What if the electrician does not see any burnt aluminum wiring or his client does not want to do anything about it, then six months later the house catches on fire. No explanation will cover you, you simply did not have the aluminum wiring in your report, that in itself will give an attorney a reason to come after you. The outcome does not matter, you have "lost" already at this point. If you feel unsafe then make it very clear in your report as to what you did not inspect AND what may be present there. I would advise against moving into a house with FPE or Zinsco and especially with UNINSPECTED old panels of this sort.


I had the cover off a Zinsco once when the A/C turned on, sparks shot out from behind the breaker. I looked real close and could see no evidence of arcing while the unit was running or while it was off only during that initial high load period. The seller was a "certified Lexus mechanic" and came unglued because he did not understand how I could have found that problem.
He also came unglued because he had to pay for a 2nd trip because I would not entertain his viscious dog that was tied up in the garage.

Bruce you always have strong arguments and I've learned a ton from you however on this one I just don't see your logic... if I deamed a panel unsafe due to age and what's already known about them and didn't open the panel because of the hype that is wildely known how could I be held responsible if the house burned down? I told the client to hire an electrician for a complete inspection. Its not my fault if he misses something. We are generalist he's the licensed expert. Wouldn't you agree?

[Billy Boerner]

Originally Posted by rbrady

My understanding of the problem is the breakers do not trip when they should. Supposedly you can even turn off a breaker and it may not dis-connect power.

So is this opinion Ralph? If this is the case why would we inspect the panel? Simply state the history and that it needs replaced. No?

[rbrady]

Originally Posted by rbrady

I have seen many (50?) FPE panels and I would be surprised if even half of them have been replaced. I have never had an issue removing the dead-front cover. I have heard of people having breakers falling out, but it has never happened to me - not even close. Most of the panels I have seen acutally look pretty good. I ALWAYS warn about FPE problems and recommend evaluation.
I believe you should remove the cover to look for typical issues. You may even find something like melted insulation, scorching, etc that may actually convince someone to do something about it.

Billy, I guess you missed this post. This thread is just too active!!

[Bruce A. King]

Originally Posted by bboerner

Bruce you always have strong arguments and I've learned a ton from you however on this one I just don't see your logic... if I deamed a panel unsafe due to age and what's already known about them and didn't open the panel because of the hype that is wildely known how could I be held responsible if the house burned down? I told the client to hire an electrician for a complete inspection. Its not my fault if he misses something. We are generalist he's the licensed expert. Wouldn't you agree?

Not in the entirety, I make my living finding lots of problems created by "licensed experts". Don't ever trust your reputation to someone else.
I did not say you could be held responsible for a house burning down, I said you could get sued over it. Report writing is also about full disclosure and warning the client about what you could not inspect. If you don't remove the panel cover at least remove a few outlet covers and look for aluminum wiring that way.

[Billy Boerner]

Originally Posted by rbrady

Billy, I guess you missed this post. This thread is just too active!!

No I got your point and agree with it. I just don't like removing them especially if I don't have to. However both you and Bruce made some strong points so I'll keep on removing them. My deal is everytime I do remove them I seem to trip a breaker. Last time I shut down the AC. Was not pretty. The breakers felt like they could fall out at any minute.

[Gregory A. Liebig]

Originally Posted by bboerner

My question is why does some electricians state there is nothing wrong with a FP panel and then some state the house will burn down if you don't upgrade. I hate coming across a FP panel. I called out one and the electrician told the homeowner nothing was wrong with it. So now I'm hesitant. The home owner was not happy having to pay a electrician when according to the electrician nothing was wrong with it.

I've had the same thing happen to me and even the city electrical inspector backed it up. See Previous Post. There were many other problems with the panel. The electrician said it was OK and grandfathered in.

[Bruce A. King]

That brings up another point, some electricians do not want to replace a panel. Why? They know that they will actually need a valid electrical license, a permit and a city business license (if house is within a city limit). Many simply do not have all of this current and only want the quick small jobs.

[Billy Boerner]

Originally Posted by bking

That brings up another point, some electricians do not want to replace a panel. Why? They know that they will actually need a valid electrical license, a permit and a city business license (if house is within a city limit). Many simply do not have all of this current and only want the quick small jobs.

Bruce get this I'm going back to a house on Monday that has a new panel in it however no electrician has signed off on the panel. The only label on it is the manufacture label. The sellers had a guy coming out on Sunday to finish the HVAC installation as well. What professional heat and air guys you know that works on Sunday's? I told the buyer to head on down and check for permits.