Fixture OK above Tub/Shower ?

[David P. Valley]

Originally Posted by jbushart

The PDF file you provided has your answer. All of these trims are suitable for damp locations, but those suitable for "showers" or "wet locations" are specially marked.

Article 100 of NEC defines "damp location" and "wet location". A shower is a wet location and a device suitable for a damp location is unsuitable for a shower and needs to be replaced.

Jim,

Good info.

[Bob Elliott]

Originally Posted by mnahrgang

Thanks Jim, I needed that info myself.

Here's an corrected comment...

SAFETY CONCERN: While the recessed light fixture over the tub in the master bathroom is rated for a "damp location" it is not rated for use in a "wet location" such as over a tub. This fixture does not have a vital cover over the bulb which would protect anyone in the case of breakage.The current occupants have installed an exterior bulb as a substitute. This is not a recommended practice nor suitable nor safe for this location. Recommend appropriate repair or replacement by a qualified electrical expert.

I like that comment.
(cut and paste time)

[James H. Bushart]

Originally Posted by Jim Port

Why would the ceiling of a shower be be considered to be a wet location? Using the NEC definition of wet location it is not underground or subject to saturation, nor is it outside in an unprotected location. Using 410.4(D) only says listed for wet locations "if subject to shower spray". I guess someone could spray the ceiling with a handheld showerhead, but that seems to be a stretch.

Seagull Lighting has several open baffle trims for recessed that are shower rated. The bulbs listed for use with the trims are either PAR 30 or 38 bulbs.

Does not the NEC, itself, refer you to the manufacturer's instructions? Read the PDF file Bob provided and you will find that the manufacturer recommends, for showers, a fixture that is rated for a "wet location".

[Bob Elliott]

Originally Posted by jbushart

Does not the NEC, itself, refer you to the manufacturer's instructions? Read the PDF file Bob provided and you will find that the manufacturer recommends, for showers, a fixture that is rated for a "wet location".

I just wonder the difference?

[Jim Port]

Originally Posted by jbushart

Does not the NEC, itself, refer you to the manufacturer's instructions? Read the PDF file Bob provided and you will find that the manufacturer recommends, for showers, a fixture that is rated for a "wet location".

Yes, 110.3(B) requires you to follow the instructions. I did not see any instruction that recommends a fixture for a wet location such as a shower. The housing do not make the difference. It is the trim installed. What I did see was this "
All trims are suitable for damp locations; only shower trims are listed for wet locations.
"
If this is what you are referring to I do not see that the same way you interpreted it. To me if the location is wet it needs a shower trim, a damp location could use any trim available. I do not see the ceiling as a wet area. I would not consider that PDF as an instruction either. It is more for trim selection than installation requirements.

[James H. Bushart]

Originally Posted by Jim Port

Yes, 110.3(B) requires you to follow the instructions. I did not see any instruction that recommends a fixture for a wet location such as a shower. The housing do not make the difference. It is the trim installed. What I did see was this "
All trims are suitable for damp locations; only shower trims are listed for wet locations.
"
If this is what you are referring to I do not see that the same way you interpreted it. To me if the location is wet it needs a shower trim, a damp location could use any trim available. I do not see the ceiling as a wet area. I would not consider that PDF as an instruction either. It is more for trim selection than installation requirements.

We will have to agree to disagree.

While a bathroom is not a wet area, the inside of a shower is consistent with a wet area as defined by the NEC, for the inside of a shower is indeed subject to saturation by water. Any electrical devices accessible to this area need to be labeled by UL for wet location use (and meet the necessary distance requirements).

In that I am a home inspector and not a mere AHJ who is handcuffed to the specific wording of a code book, I am able to apply the intent and I am expected by my client to err on the side of his safety.

Accordingly, I would be negligent to insist that the inside of his shower was a "damp area" and that unenclosed electrical devices that are not designed to come in direct contact with liquid be installed inside of his shower.

[Jim Port]

I am well aware that you can point this issue out to your clients as you are not restricted to the NEC. I would see your point of view if the fixture were below the showerhead, but it is not. I see a ceiling mounted recessed as above a wet area. I feel that this would be a needless item if listed for an evaluation or repair on an HI report.

[Bob Elliott]

In this case the shower is installed on a flex hose and can be aimed up at the ceiling.

[James H. Bushart]

Originally Posted by belliott

In this case the shower is installed on a flex hose and can be aimed up at the ceiling.

And the light is installed 8 feet above the rim of the tub, right?

[Jim Port]

Originally Posted by belliott

In this case the shower is installed on a flex hose and can be aimed up at the ceiling.

Sounds like the light above the kitchen sink would be a wet area too if there was a dish sprayer installed.

I am not sure where someone was going with the 8' above the rim comment. That requirement is not for recessed fixtures.

[Bob Elliott]

Originally Posted by jbushart

And the light is installed 8 feet above the rim of the tub, right?

Installed above tub and most likely less than 8 feet.

One of those new high tech deals that would have no problem hitting the light.

[tmcsweeney]

Any fixture over a shower or bath tub has to be GFI protected. Also, I believe there is a highth requirement that if I remember correctly is 6 or 8 feet above the floor. Tim

[Bob Elliott]

Originally Posted by tmcsweeney

Any fixture over a shower or bath tub has to be GFI protected. Also, I believe there is a highth requirement that if I remember correctly is 6 or 8 feet above the floor. Tim

Hmm
The spa tub had a gfci underneath but the panel also had one.
Not a labeled panel and place still being worked on.
that may explain it.

[Jim Port]

Originally Posted by tmcsweeney

Any fixture over a shower or bath tub has to be GFI protected. Also, I believe there is a highth requirement that if I remember correctly is 6 or 8 feet above the floor. Tim

Unless in the installation instruction or a local amendment the NEC would not require GFI protection for a lighting fixture. Most vent fans will call for GFI protection if installed over a tub or shower footprint.

Again the vertical clearence requirement does not apply to flush mounted fixtures. It applies to cord connected, chain style or track lights and paddle fans. The complete list is in 410.4(D).

[George P. Wells, CMI]

Originally Posted by belliott

It says suitable for damp location.
Does this need a special ring or a wet rating .

What worries me is the most is the "made in China". There's probably a Walmart greeter out there somewhere who used to made the fixtures in the US.