Garage GFCI

[rdale]

Here's the scenario: Attached garage. New home. Ceiling lights, automatic garage door opener, AND all GFCI outlets on SAME circuit!. If I'm in the garage, at night, running a power saw (example), and I trip the GFCI, the lights go out, and the opener shuts off. I'm stuck in the dark!! I can't find a code anywhere that says the GFCI outlest and the light/opener have to be on separate circuits. I wrote it up as a safety violation that needed service. Any thoughts? Have a code number?

Rich

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

I wrote it up as a safety violation that needed service.

You should retract that completely-inaccurate statement. It is not a "violation" and it is not a "safety-concern."

It may be considered a nuisance, but there is nothing that prohibits this set-up.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Agreeed with my friend the " POPE ".....retract that statement as it is not correct.

The NEC® tells us what is REQUIRED to be GFCI protected......thats about it.......if the client wants to put all 120V 15 & 20 Amp circuits on GFCI they are more than OK to do so.....inconvience is not a mandate of the CODE.

[rdale]

So, I (home owner) accidentally trip the GFI, my saw shuts off, I'm stumbling in the dark, I trip and fall, which spills gas from an old can of gas I use to clean stuff, I drop my saw, it causes a spark, and I go up in flames, and thats not a safety concern? (Not to mention the home inspector ends up liable for his/her death/injury because I didn't mention it).

I didn't actually write in my report that it was a "violation". I merely stated that it may be a safety concern and that they may wish to add a separate circuit so that in case a GFI is tripped, the lights and opener won't go out. Sorry to have confused you.

The ONLY answer I was looking for here was... is there a 'code' or 'standard' on an attached garage that says these circuits must or 'should' be separate? This is the first attached garage in over 400 inspections that was wired this way. So, there must be a reason the other 399 were wired separately!

I wasn't looking for someone to criticize how inaccurate I am/was. Geeze.

[Humberto Carvajal]

Except for the refrigerator Paul! Don't forget the refrigerator must be by itself!..LOL

[Mike Whitt]

Originally Posted by rdale

So, I (home owner) accidentally trip the GFI, my saw shuts off, I'm stumbling in the dark, I trip and fall, which spills gas from an old can of gas I use to clean stuff, I drop my saw, it causes a spark, and I go up in flames, and thats not a safety concern? (Not to mention the home inspector ends up liable for his/her death/injury because I didn't mention it).

Mr. Dale

Let me first say that you saw something that you feel is a danger and you should never be criticized for this.
If there is one thing that I try to teach it is;
Safety first
Safety last
Safety always

To address the code issues concerning the use of one circuit in the garage and protecting the entire circuit with GFCI, there is nothing that prohibits this.
As a matter of fact in the 2008 code cycle all the receptacles in the garage will be required to be GFCI protected.

Personally I don’t put the light on the load side of GFCI although I have ran into situations where it had to be due to the way the circuit was installed originally. Without a doubt this is what happened in this instance. The circuit was installed where it would have to have the light on the load side of the GFCI.

Let me also say that through my thinking of safety first, safety last, safety always, it would be a greater danger to be using an electrical tool around a can of gas in daylight than the way the circuit is installed.

Should this person die through the scenario you presented I would have to rule it a clear case of accidental suicide.

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

Originally Posted by rdale

I didn't actually write in my report that it was a "violation". I merely stated that it may be a safety concern and that they may wish to add a separate circuit so that in case a GFI is tripped, the lights and opener won't go out. Sorry to have confused you.

No confusion here, I merely responded to your post, as it was written.

Originally Posted by rdale

The ONLY answer I was looking for here was... is there a 'code' or 'standard' on an attached garage that says these circuits must or 'should' be separate?

That question was answered. The answer is "no."

Originally Posted by rdale

This is the first attached garage in over 400 inspections that was wired this way. So, there must be a reason the other 399 were wired separately!

"Common practice" would be the reason for that. As I stated, you would certainly be justified to report it as a potential nuisance.

Originally Posted by rdale

I wasn't looking for someone to criticize how inaccurate I am/was. Geeze.

If you stated in your report (as you "implied") that this is a "violation" and "unsafe," it was necessary to let you know that you were inaccurate (wrong), so that lesser-experienced inspectors are not misdirected.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Originally Posted by hcarvajal

Except for the refrigerator Paul! Don't forget the refrigerator must be by itself!..LOL

Who says...the NEC® sure does not...

It says it CAN be by itself...not that is is required to be so.....

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Originally Posted by rdale

So, I (home owner) accidentally trip the GFI, my saw shuts off, I'm stumbling in the dark, I trip and fall, which spills gas from an old can of gas I use to clean stuff, I drop my saw, it causes a spark, and I go up in flames, and thats not a safety concern? (Not to mention the home inspector ends up liable for his/her death/injury because I didn't mention it).

I didn't actually write in my report that it was a "violation". I merely stated that it may be a safety concern and that they may wish to add a separate circuit so that in case a GFI is tripped, the lights and opener won't go out. Sorry to have confused you.

The ONLY answer I was looking for here was... is there a 'code' or 'standard' on an attached garage that says these circuits must or 'should' be separate? This is the first attached garage in over 400 inspections that was wired this way. So, there must be a reason the other 399 were wired separately!

I wasn't looking for someone to criticize how inaccurate I am/was. Geeze.

I don't think anyone is crticizing you my friend...just trying to remove an inaccurate statement is all, This is the on going battle to help electricians and inspectors work together as if you put that in your statement the local electrician would make a comment probably that would not be in your best interest....trust me....we are only trying to be helpful.

We can't give you a code....because none exists regarding your question.

Ok...I removed my trip statement above...lol...as I dont want it to be taken the wrong way. But in your example of a series of events it would more than likely be staged......we should not store gas in open areas that could be tripped over...and should not store gas in the garage really. Depending on the floor convering I am not sure a spark would be produced really and well many things COULD happen I guess.......but they are not really a GFCI related thing.

[Richard A. Hayes]

I would have put the GFCI in the recepticales not in the panel... That would solve the problem.

As far as safety- you need to store you gas better!!!!

[kmiller1]

Some municipalities may have ordinances that they enforce that go beyond the NEC. I used to run into that all the time when I was still doing remod work. Sometimes you run into a muni inspector who just misunderstands the code or ordinance and enforces it wrong.

[Richard L. Bennett]

A little off the thread

How many and what is the required spacing of garage outlets??

I assume that the one per wall and 12 ft rule does not apply

Are any required??

rlb

[Jim Port]

As the garage is not considered a habitable room there are no spacing or required receptacles.'

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Agreed...heck I have seen some Muni-Inspectors require receptacles in the garage to be a minimum of 18" high.......not understanding that this applies to commercial garages and not dwelling garages...but it happens.

[wsiegel]

Come on Paul, they have to justify their salaries.