Garage GFCI

[Greg Fretwell]

The thing you have to remember about the code is in

90.1(C) Intention. This Code is not intended as a design specification or an instruction manual for untrained persons.

There are lots of stupid design decisions that are not specifically prohibited in the code.

[Richard L. Bennett]

So don't live in a garage

rlb

[Humberto Carvajal]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

Who says...the NEC® sure does not...

It says it CAN be by itself...not that is is required to be so.....

Absolutely Paul. My intent was just to point out that it wouldn't be a wise idea to place it on a GFCI. I'm sorry if I caused any confusion.

Regards,

[Stephen W. Stanczyk]

Originally Posted by rdale

So, I (home owner) accidentally trip the GFI, my saw shuts off, I'm stumbling in the dark, I trip and fall, which spills gas from an old can of gas I use to clean stuff, I drop my saw, it causes a spark, and I go up in flames, and thats not a safety concern? (Not to mention the home inspector ends up liable for his/her death/injury because I didn't mention it).

Please let us know when this happens so we can submit it to the Darwin Awards. Cleaning with gas? Working with a power saw without a clean work area or path? Sure, just rest the board on your leg..... Now I know why they have to put warnings like "do not stick hand in running mower blades" on lawnmowers.

[Russel Ray]

Originally Posted by Greg Fretwell

There are lots of stupid design decisions that are not specifically prohibited in the code.

My wise ol' grandmother said, "Ain't that the truth?"

Common sense also is not specifically prohibited, or encouraged, or even addressed in the code.

I would not want to be stumbling around in the dark if the GFCI tripped, so whenever I find lights on the GFCI, I always call them out as a safety concern and recommend individual circuits. Additionally, when I find the first, second, and third-floor bathrooms on the same GFCI located out in the garage, I call it out as a safety concern. I would not want to be traveling down three flights of stairs just after getting out of the shower and still wet to reset the GFCI. Trip hazards are the number one cause of accident and injury around the home, and that would certainly be a trip hazard in my opinion.

So far, in 6 years of home inspecting, I haven't had a Client who disagreed with me. Some electricians have, but as I tell my Clients, electricians work to code, which is an absolute minimum requirement and doesn't address common sense. Additionally, the very essense of how codes are decided certainly means that everything that is code isn't necessarily right, or that something that isn't code isn't better than that which is code. That's why codes get updated every 2-4 years, and sometimes why there are delays in implementing new codes.

After all, who decides what is code and what isn't? Is it not a committee of some type, at a minimum? So let's imagine a committee of, say, 21 electricians sitting around deciding whether or not to implement JPGR. 11 say no, and 10 say yes. Consequently, it's not code. Three years from now, with either the original 21 people or a different set of 21 people, the vote now is 11 yes and 10 no. What changed? Sometimes nothing, other than a few deaths and property damage from not having implemented JPGR three years ago.

Sometimes, new codes are not implemented because they are inconvenient to the manufacturers (i.e., expensive). But at what price? A few deaths, injuries, or property damage? Ah, yes, gotta the lobbyists and the system, one of the reasons why I left the "home inspector" industry to become a "property consultant." Consultants have a lot more leeway to work with common sense, mere opinions, etc.

[Russel Ray]

Originally Posted by sstanczyk

Cleaning with gas?

My wise ol' grandmother did that all the time, as did I and everyone else in my family when we were growing up. Also learned how to siphon gas out of a gas tank. Of course, now I resort to GoJo since gas just doesn't have the same taste as a margarita.

Originally Posted by sstanczyk

Working with a power saw without a clean work area or path?

See definition of "Bubba." Usually they are found in the Deep South, particularly in rural areas.

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

Originally Posted by rray

whenever I find lights on the GFCI, I always call them out as a safety concern

Safety concern? Ridiculous.

Southern California Edison has power outages more often than any of my GFCI's trip. Using that logic, I should write-up the utility company as a "safety concern."

[Russel Ray]

Originally Posted by jpope

Safety concern? Ridiculous.

Southern California Edison has power outages more often than any of my GFCI's trip. Using that logic, I should write-up the utility company as a "safety concern."

They are. And you should. I do. And then I introduce my Clients to the latest in flashlights and rechargeable batteries. There are even flashlights that you simply shake back and forth to charge the batteries. Pretty cool.

I don't neglect safety concerns in any part of the house, and that includes those ol' utility companies. My Clients even get a picture of what the gas wrench looks like.

Your statement makes me glad that I don't live anywhere near La-La-Land since SDG&E apparently is much more stable than SCE. Your scenario would encourage me to recommend that my Clients also install a battery backup system, especially for the Santa Ana months.

[Greg Fretwell]

Remember, your HI job is not to enforce code, just to point out things the customer will hate if he buys the house.

[Mike Whitt]

Originally Posted by rray

I don't neglect safety concerns in any part of the house, and that includes those ol' utility companies.

This is why I made the statement that I did in this post I think that Richard should be commended for his thinking and not ridiculed as some seem to be making it look.

[Russel Ray]

Originally Posted by Mike Whitt

This is why I made the statement that I did in this post I think that Richard should be commended for his thinking and not ridiculed as some seem to be making it look.

Totally agree. I don't think I could ever be a city code or building inspector. Just too rigid and doesn't allow for common sense.

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

Originally Posted by Mike Whitt

This is why I made the statement that I did in this post I think that Richard should be commended for his thinking and not ridiculed as some seem to be making it look.

I wasn't ridiculing Richard, just simply pointing out that his statement was inaccurate. He later clarified that he didn't actually report it as a "violation."

I'm all for sharing opinions with clients, but it's important to clarify that is an "opinion," and should not be reported as a "violation."

It is my opinion that the installation outlined in the initial post, is not a safety hazard and to report it as such is (IMHO) ridiculous.

However, to report it as a "potential nuisance," is (IMHO) reasonable.

To try and sum up all of the potential "safety concerns" in every system of the home, based on all possible scenarios would likely scare away anyone from purchasing a home. Next, we would be warning of the dangers of falling roof tiles, because standards don't require all of them to be nailed/fastened (I know Russell, you probably already cover this, but if not maybe you should) or the fact that you're in danger of being crushed in your family room if your car is driven through the garage wall - so you should build a concrete firewall.

Where do we draw the line? Building standards give us a pretty good idea.

[Russel Ray]

Originally Posted by jpope

I'm all for sharing opinions with clients, but it's important to clarify that is an "opinion," and should not be reported as a "violation."

Ergo, exactly the reason why I left the "home inspection" industry to be a "property consultant," especially since this state is so ridiculous when it comes to home inspections.

Originally Posted by jpope

Building standards give us a pretty good idea.

I prefer to go beyond "pretty good."

[Russel Ray]

Originally Posted by jpope

To try and sum up all of the potential "safety concerns" in every system of the home, based on all possible scenarios would likely scare away anyone from purchasing a home.

It definitely could. That's why many people need to be educated about home ownership. Sometimes I think that home ownership should be licensed, just like having babies. Oooooooops. Wait! Having babies doesn't need to be licensed. Hmmmmmmmm.

Originally Posted by jpope

Next, we would be warning of the dangers of falling roof tiles, because standards don't require all of them to be nailed/fastened (I know Russell, you probably already cover this, but if not maybe you should)

I certainly do because of the Santa Ana wind conditions that we occasionally get.

Originally Posted by jpope

or the fact that you're in danger of being crushed in your family room if your car is driven through the garage wall - so you should build a concrete firewall.

The car won't be going fast enough to get through the garage wall, so, no, that one doesn't carry weight. However, when I find a home at the corner of a freeway off-ramp, I do recommend nice trees or a wall on the corner. Our drivers down here like to take the off-ramps too fast and go careening into homes. There was one not too far from me a couple of weeks ago where the car got stuck in the chimney. I went to get my camera and go back, but by then they had it out of the chimney and on the ground.

[Frank Newman]

Originally Posted by rdale

Here's the scenario: Attached garage. New home. Ceiling lights, automatic garage door opener, AND all GFCI outlets on SAME circuit!. If I'm in the garage, at night, running a power saw (example), and I trip the GFCI, the lights go out, and the opener shuts off. I'm stuck in the dark!!
Rich

I'm not sure what the loss of ppower to the garage door opener has to do with the situation. I've never seen a modern garage door that could not be opened manually from the inside.

P.S. - I agree the installation is very poor from a practical point of view, but I don't see it as a code violation. I would simply point out the situation to the client as a situation they may wish to consider changing.