GE panel opinions

[Bruce A. King]

I have seen this upper bus bar discoloration on 3 or 4 GE panels (some interior and some exterior) and always recommend an electrician.

This time I spent some extra time and checked for abnormal heat after running some larger loads (A/C and oven) and no heat buildup was found.

Townhome, 200A panel, gas heat, gas water heater. Panel is located at exterior but very clean inside.

Anything else besides bad connection/heat to cause this?
Note, it may look like rust in the picture but does not in person, just discoloration.

[Bob Elliott]

Bruce , I am not a chemist but wonder if it could be a chemical reaction off the feeder.
Did you notice if they were all Aluminum?

[jtedesco1]

What size is the wire into the lugs at the 200 A OCD?

Were they torqued properly?

Do you wear PPE?

[Bruce A. King]

Originally Posted by relliott

Bruce , I am not a chemist but wonder if it could be a chemical reaction off the feeder.
Did you notice if they were all Aluminum?

yes all AL

[Bruce A. King]

Originally Posted by jtedesco1

What size is the wire into the lugs at the 200 A OCD?

Were they torqued properly?

Do you wear PPE?

4/0

Didn't check torque but could not move the wires in the lugs or feel any heat with a good load.

of course

[Pierre Belarge]

Originally Posted by jtedesco1

What size is the wire into the lugs at the 200 A OCD?

Were they torqued properly?

Do you wear PPE?

Joe
Is there really any way that the torque requirement is a Home Inspector's responsibility?

This is not something that any inspector should or could be looking for.


Not to be a pain, but there are limits to certain items. Torqueing is performed at the time of installation.
Maybe a Thermal image test can be performed...again, is that the HI's responsibility?

[jtedesco1]

Bruce may have looked at the instructions in his panelboard like these and if he simply mentioned the torque requirements, he would have done what anyone would expect of a professional.

I would admire that type of home inspector, and as far as the thermal image testing, some here are now becomong experts on this testing procedure and may have some images that could be included in a report, just to give another method of inspection.

Burns and Other Injuries

Shock-related injuries include burns, internal injuries, and injuries due to involuntary muscle contractions.Burns

The most common shock-related injury is a burn. Burns suffered in electrical incidents may be one or more of the following three types:

• Electrical burns cause tissue damage, and are the result of heat generated by the flow of electric current through the body. Electrical burns are one of the most serious injuries you can receive and should be given immediate attention.

Photo Example

Warning:
Please be advised these images are of a graphic nature.

• High temperatures near the body produced by an electric arc or explosion cause arc or flash burns. They should also be attended to promptly.

Photo Example

Warning:
Please be advised these images are of a graphic nature.

• Thermal contact burns occur when skin comes in contact with overheated electric equipment, or when clothing is ignited in an electrical incident.

Photo Example

Warning:
Please be advised these images are of a graphic nature.Internal Injuries
Excessive electricity flowing through the human body can cause serious damage to internal organs. Resulting medical problems include hemorrhage (or internal bleeding), tissue destruction, and nerve or muscle damage. These internal injuries may not be immediately apparent to the victim or observers; however, left untreated, they can result in death. Photo Example

Warning:
Please be advised these images are of a graphic nature.Involuntary Muscle Contraction

Normal muscle contraction is caused by very small amounts of electricity that are created within our bodies. Muscles violently contract when stimulated by excessive amounts of electricity. These involuntary contractions can damage muscles, tendons, and ligaments, and may even cause broken bones. If the victim is holding an electrocuting object, hand muscles may contract, making it impossible to drop the object and prolonging contact with the current. Also, injury or death may result when violent muscle contractions cause workers to fall from ladders and scaffolds or inadvertently strike other objects.Photo Example

Warning:
Please be advised these images are of a graphic nature.

[Michael Larson]

Joe T.,

I'm of the opinion that the HI has no business speculating on the cause of the discoloration when he writes his report.

The cause could be several things.

The observed conditions only indicate that something may be wrong either now or in the past and that a qualified electrician should repair it as needed.

I guess that means I now lack your admiration. Oh well.

[klott]

Corrosion caused by dissimilar metals. They used to coat the lugs with grease to prevent this condition.IMO

[Marc D. Shunk]

Much ado about nothing. Those GE 200 amp mains are that way from brand spanking new. Here's a pic of a brand new, never installed, one right off the shelf:

Originally Posted by bking

I have seen this upper bus bar discoloration on 3 or 4 GE panels (some interior and some exterior) and always recommend an electrician.

Probably was the prudent thing to do, but in this case it was an "oops!". The electrician probably sold them a service upgrade or panel change to get rid of their junk GE equipment.

[Michael Larson]

Thanks Marc. Good info.

[jtedesco1]

This publication includes information that mentions overheating and shows examples, some of which are with the same defects shown in the pictures here:

NEMA Standards Publication AB 4-2003

Guidelines for Inspection and Preventive Maintenance
of Molded Case Circuit Breakers Used in
Commercial and Industrial Applications

Published by:

National Electrical Manufacturers Association

1300 North 17th Street, Suite 1847
Rosslyn, Virginia 22209
www.nema.org

[Bruce A. King]

Maybe the discoloration was caused by the welding process where they welded the bars behind the breaker.

The interesting thing is that not all of these exact same parts have the discoloration present. I have two of these panels/mains and neither are like that.


Its nothing to do with lack of dielectric grease, not needed with these SE cables anymore. Also its an AL to AL connection.

Joe,
I wonder if the IR camera guys know to run EACH and every load for a period of time before checking for ecessive heat. No load current = no heat, even with a bad breaker or bad connection. Since most homes have nothing available to load the 15 and 20 amp branch circuits you will have to carry a load device with you.

[Joe Farsetta]

Bruce may have looked at the instructions in his panelboard like these and if he simply mentioned the torque requirements, he would have done what anyone would expect of a professional.

Joe T, we've been down this road no fewer than a couple of times before. Please explain how mentioning the torque requirements after making an observation is "what anyone would expect of a professional".

A professional WHAT?

The inspector's responsibility is to observe and report the apparent conditions visible at the time of the inspection. I dont know why something may be discolored. I only know that it IS, and report the condition.

[jtedesco1]

That's it Joe you got it!

"The inspector's responsibility is to observe and report the apparent conditions visible at the time of the inspection. I don't know why something may be discolored. I only know that it IS, and report the condition."

Good Boy Joe!

This is a "Statement made by a professional!"