General Electric Panel/ Ground Wires

[pnarron]

I know that you are not suppose to have more than one per lug, but what if it looks like the attached pic. (It has about It is a Gen Electric panel. I have not seen anything like this. It is a sub panel. Does anyone see anything else wrong with this panel and is there an exception for the ground wires. The panel/house is 19 years old.

[Bob Elliott]

Only one neutral to a lug is the rule.
Why do you think this is exempted in the pictures ?

I observe hot conductors also mislabeled as white at the breakers.

Since this is a sub-panel ,ground and neutral must remain separated.

[pnarron]

I had not seen a panel set up like this one before. I had did a house last year where there were openings in the bus bar where 3-4 grounds were together. I asked a master electrican about it and he said that the panel was made that way. I still have my doubts about that.

[Bob Elliott]

I was speaking of the neutrals only as they would be more of an issue.

Here is a conversation excerpt from our forum.
Sorry I lost the poster.

was trying to explain this the other day to a client...

Mr. Pope can correct me if I'm wrong (I consider him the expert).

You can connect neutral and ground at the Main service panel because that is the "junction point" where electrical service enters the house. Anything downstream of the main service panel has junctions which may become loose or inadequately connected allowing current to flow back into the neutral, rather than the ground due to inadequate path of least resistance to ground.

There is only one point of connection in the Main service panel for each component. Once you extend the electrical conductors to subsequent service panel's, you increase the potential of increased resistance which may cause electrical failure to back feed on a path of least resistance to a non-desirable location.

The main service panel has two legs of power, one neutral to the transformer, one grounded electrical conductor (to a grounding rod, hopefully below the meter box), one grounded electrical conductor back to the main transformer feed, and possible other connections depending on design.

Any interpretation that electrical current does not flow on neutral lines is a fallacy! It will in fact get you killed! Neutral wires are not on the same level as ground wires. They do carry electrical current where as ground wires do not. If you have an electrical failure which causes current to flow back onto the grounding system, you want the least path of resistance to be on the grounding conductors rather than the neutral.

Neutral wiring carries electrical current, therefore reducing its capacity to provide a line of least resistance back to earth where the electrical current does not cause physical injury. Grounding conductors should never be considered "the same as " neutral conductors.

[pnarron]

Thanks for your help.

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

To simplify it a bit. . .

Neutrals that are grounded at any point past the service equipment will increase the potential for "objectional current."

[Robert Meier]

Originally Posted by belliott

I was speaking of the neutrals only as they would be more of an issue.

Here is a conversation excerpt from our forum.
Sorry I lost the poster.

was trying to explain this the other day to a client...

Mr. Pope can correct me if I'm wrong (I consider him the expert).

(1)You can connect neutral and ground at the Main service panel because that is the "junction point" where electrical service enters the house. Anything downstream of the main service panel has junctions which may become loose or inadequately connected allowing current to flow back into the neutral, rather than the ground due to inadequate path of least resistance to ground.

(2)There is only one point of connection in the Main service panel for each component. Once you extend the electrical conductors to subsequent service panel's, you increase the potential of increased resistance which may cause electrical failure to back feed on a path of least resistance to a non-desirable location.

(3)The main service panel has two legs of power, one neutral to the transformer, one grounded electrical conductor (to a grounding rod, hopefully below the meter box), one grounded electrical conductor back to the main transformer feed, and possible other connections depending on design.

(4)Any interpretation that electrical current does not flow on neutral lines is a fallacy! It will in fact get you killed! Neutral wires are not on the same level as ground wires. They do carry electrical current where as ground wires do not. If you have an electrical failure which causes current to flow back onto the grounding system, you want the least path of resistance to be on the grounding conductors rather than the neutral.

(5)Neutral wiring carries electrical current, therefore reducing its capacity to provide a line of least resistance back to earth where the electrical current does not cause physical injury. Grounding conductors should never be considered "the same as " neutral conductors.

I've numbered your statements to make it easier to respond.

(1)-You cannot make another connection between the EGC and the neutral beyond the service point because it will put the two conductors in parallel which will allow neutral current to also flow on the EGC' which under normal conditions must not carry current.

(2)-Try to not use the term" Path of least resistance". Current will follow all paths of any resistance. If not objects in parallel would not function. Also a dwelling would likely have only one service. Any panels beyond the service point would be a "sub-panel".

(3)-A 120/240 volt residential service would have three conductors coming from the utility supply. Two hot conductors and one grounded (neutral) conductor. All associated grounding on the line side of the service disconnect would be accomplished by using the grounded conductor. This would include the meter enclosure and the panelboard enclosure. All grounding electrode conductors would be connected anywhere between the service point and the service disconnect.

(4) & (5)-I believe that this graphic is what you're talking about about:

[David P. OKeefe]

Should this screw be removed? Looks to me that it is bonding the neutrals to the panel.

[David A. Andersen]

What about the gob of grounds under one lug in pic#1 at the top left?

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

Originally Posted by dandersen

What about the gob of grounds under one lug in pic#1 at the top left?

There are enough issues with this panel (including that grounding connection) that would warrant correction by a qualified electrician.

I don't believe that the neutral bus is bonded by that particular screw, but I don't see a bonding connection for the grounding bus either. There is also a neutral attached to the grounding bus and other issues that have been pointed out.

This is a "sloppy" installation at best.

[Jeffrey R. Jonas]

Originally Posted by dandersen

What about the gob of grounds under one lug in pic#1 at the top left?

I believe that was the OP's original question.

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

Those "grounds" may actually be a strands of a single conductor. It's hard to tell with the limited view. . .

[Robert Meier]

Originally Posted by jpope

There are enough issues with this panel (including that grounding connection) that would warrant correction by a qualified electrician.

I don't believe that the neutral bus is bonded by that particular screw, but I don't see a bonding connection for the grounding bus either. There is also a neutral attached to the grounding bus and other issues that have been pointed out.

This is a "sloppy" installation at best.

I agree since the bonding screw is required to be green it doesn't appear that the one in the photo is actually bonding the neutral bus to the enclosure. I also agree that this is very sloppy workmanship.

Originally Posted by jpope

Those "grounds" may actually be a strands of a single conductor. It's hard to tell with the limited view. . .

Just a guess but judging from the number of circuit breakers, the number of neutral conductors and the fact that only 4 EGC's are landed in the screw terminals I would bet that the large number of bare copper conductors are in fact Equipment Grounding Conductors.

[Jeffrey R. Wicklander]

Originally Posted by belliott

The main service panel has two legs of power, one neutral to the transformer, one grounded electrical conductor (to a grounding rod, hopefully below the meter box), one grounded electrical conductor back to the main transformer feed, and possible other connections depending on design.

The main service panel has two legs of power, one neutral to the transformer, one grounding electrical conductor (to a grounding rod, hopefully below the meter box), one grounding electrical conductor back to the main transformer feed, and possible other connections depending on design.

[Jeffrey R. Wicklander]

Are those GFI breakers' neutrals hooked up coming back from a multiwire branch circuit? From the pic, it looks like one single neutral coming back and splitting to each breaker as well as going to the neutral bar.

Jeff