GFCI under Kitchen Sink????

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Originally Posted by mcyr

Paul, can you elaborate on what that means?

Sure.....remember now we are talking about two different things here. The 6' requirement is from the edge of the sink. That is a utility sink, wet bar sink and Laundry sink....not a kitchen sink !!!

GFCI is required when serving the countertop receptacles in a kitchen BUT the 6' requirement only comes into play on in regards to the location of the receptacles as it relates to Wet Bars, Laundry Sinks and Utility Sinks so it is easy to confuse the two requirements.

Just remember that also once your state is enforcing the 2008 NEC, any sink in non-dwelling buildings will have the 6' requirement as well...just figured I would remind all those commercial inspectors out there.

[relliott]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

Sure.....remember now we are talking about two different things here. The 6' requirement is from the edge of the sink. That is a utility sink, wet bar sink and Laundry sink....not a kitchen sink !!!

GFCI is required when serving the countertop receptacles in a kitchen BUT the 6' requirement only comes into play on in regards to the location of the receptacles as it relates to Wet Bars, Laundry Sinks and Utility Sinks so it is easy to confuse the two requirements.

Just remember that also once your state is enforcing the 2008 NEC, any sink in non-dwelling buildings will have the 6' requirement as well...just figured I would remind all those commercial inspectors out there.

What about the inside cabinet under the basin issue as it just seems to make common sense that should be considered a wet location area.?

I know not required (nor do I call it out but if the other side of the island wall has GFCI than why not that?

[Chuck Evans]

Originally Posted by relliott

What about the inside cabinet under the basin issue as it just seems to make common sense that should be considered a wet location area.?

I know not required (nor do I call it out but if the other side of the island wall has GFCI than why not that?

Because it is unlikely to be used as a convenience outlet or for small appliances

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Originally Posted by relliott

What about the inside cabinet under the basin issue as it just seems to make common sense that should be considered a wet location area.?

I know not required (nor do I call it out but if the other side of the island wall has GFCI than why not that?

What makes the area under the sink a wet location? From where I stand it looks dry under there..lol...Well firstly because the code says receptacles serving the countertops must be GFCI protected...no one ..wait no NORMAL person is going to use that receptacle under the sink to serve the countertop and code would not allow it anyway.

It's all in the codes my friend...all in the codes....

[Stephen W. Stanczyk]

Paul,

I recently ran into an upscale home that had custom kitchen cabinetry with built in spring loaded shelving that brought a large food mixer up to counter level. It was pre-wired inside the cabinet so the unit was always plugged in. The shelving brought the unit up to even with counter level about 4 feet away from the kitchen sink.

It was not GFCI protected but I recommended it due to final positioning of the cabinet / appliance when in use. What say you?

[relliott]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

What makes the area under the sink a wet location? From where I stand it looks dry under there..lol...Well firstly because the code says receptacles serving the countertops must be GFCI protected...no one ..wait no NORMAL person is going to use that receptacle under the sink to serve the countertop and code would not allow it anyway.

It's all in the codes my friend...all in the codes....

You mean like when a plumber hooks up his worklight while removing the wet trap underneath.

Guess the HVAC guy has more value placed on his life (insert joke here)
Please tell me what a extra outlet not used for a large appliance might else be used for.

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[Rick Maday]

Originally Posted by relliott

You mean like when a plumber hooks up his worklight while removing the wet trap underneath.

Guess the HVAC guy has more value placed on his life (insert joke here)
Please tell me what a extra outlet not used for a large appliance might else be used for.

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Carmels.

[James H. Bushart]

I recommend a GFCI for this area for two reasons.....One, like the unfinished part of a basement where GFCIs are required, this area is subject to discovering a puddle or two from a leaking drain or service pipe/valve.

The second reason is by demonstration. Usually, as I bend over and reach under the sink to plug/unplug something into the receptacle, my other hand is on or in the sink for balance.

When I explain the advantages of GFCIs to clients, the word "code" never comes up. It is a safety device on the market that can save a life. Why not install them under the sink?

[Chuck Evans]

Originally Posted by sstanczyk

Paul,

I recently ran into an upscale home that had custom kitchen cabinetry with built in spring loaded shelving that brought a large food mixer up to counter level. It was pre-wired inside the cabinet so the unit was always plugged in. The shelving brought the unit up to even with counter level about 4 feet away from the kitchen sink.

It was not GFCI protected but I recommended it due to final positioning of the cabinet / appliance when in use. What say you?

I'm not Paul and would defer to his opinion, but I would call it out as deficient as you did. If asked why, I would say because they serve the kitchen countertops (even if that's not where they are located).

[jack Davenport]

Keep in mind that sometimes the receptacle under the sink may have 2 circuits on it.
1 for the dishwasher and 1 for the disposal. GFCI receptacle would not work in this situation.
Another problem with replacing the receptacle with a GFCI is if it has the disposal and the dishwasher plugged in to it is the disposal is switch controlled and the dishwasher is not. GFCI receptacles will not operate properly like this.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

The problem is they dont serve the counter top in the example. The NEC is clear on what has to happen to be considered serving the countertop. Now, with that said it is perfectly FINE to suggest GFCI's anywhere you feel it is needed. Never feel uptight about recommending GFCI protection. The problem is when an HI does not recommend it but says that code would require it and in this case it would not.

[James H. Bushart]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

The problem is when an HI does not recommend it but says that code would require it and in this case it would not.

This is ALWAYS a problem.

"Code requirements" are subjective and can only be "required" by the AHJ who enforces it.

Pity the poor inspector...and his soon-to-be starving, homeless family....who quotes a "code requirement" that kills a deal and the homeowner who loses the sale brings THE authority having jurisdiction to look at the so-called defect, and who does not agree with the home inspector.

When you read the code book....particularly the administrative sections....you quickly find where the authority having jurisdiction is THE last word. What you call out as a defect is ONLY a code violation if HE says it is. What you call a code violation in a report or in a conversation with a client....is nothing more than an exercise in ESP.

Now, it is correct to say that "In some instances, some AHJs have considered this to be a code violation", but the very fact that you are looking at it and seeing it exist is a good possibility that some other AHJ did not.

GFCIs save lives. If there were no code references to them at all, we as home inspectors should recommend them in every area where they could prevent electrocution. This is how we must see our jobs. Any other vision of what we do (as home inspectors) is a fantasy.

[relliott]

Originally Posted by jbushart

This is ALWAYS a problem.

"Code requirements" are subjective and can only be "required" by the AHJ who enforces it.

Pity the poor inspector...and his soon-to-be starving, homeless family....who quotes a "code requirement" that kills a deal and the homeowner who loses the sale brings THE authority having jurisdiction to look at the so-called defect, and who does not agree with the home inspector.

When you read the code book....particularly the administrative sections....you quickly find where the authority having jurisdiction is THE last word. What you call out as a defect is ONLY a code violation if HE says it is. What you call a code violation in a report or in a conversation with a client....is nothing more than an exercise in ESP.

Now, it is correct to say that "In some instances, some AHJs have considered this to be a code violation", but the very fact that you are looking at it and seeing it exist is a good possibility that some other AHJ did not.

GFCIs save lives. If there were no code references to them at all, we as home inspectors should recommend them in every area where they could prevent electrocution. This is how we must see our jobs. Any other vision of what we do (as home inspectors) is a fantasy.

Thats why I always start phrases in my reports with the words recommend and suggest.

I make exceptions only for State code on smoke and carbon monoxide detectors which requires them with in 15 feet of bedrooms in my area though I use that only to declare that I recommend them in bedrooms.

AHJ's do not like competition they say.

[Michael Larson]

Originally Posted by jbushart

GFCIs save lives. If there were no code references to them at all, we as home inspectors should recommend them in every area where they could prevent electrocution. This is how we must see our jobs. Any other vision of what we do (as home inspectors) is a fantasy.

So do 3-wire electrical systems Jim.

Where do you draw the line?

Do you also recommend upgrading 2-wire electrical systems for safety reasons?

[relliott]

Originally Posted by mlarson

So do 3-wire electrical systems Jim.

Where do you draw the line?

Do you also recommend upgrading 2-wire electrical systems for safety reasons?

Why must you draw a line?

It is all opinion ,and that is his.