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Electrical Inspections Contains discussions about electrical systems. This includes receptacles, panels, wiring, etc.

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  #1  
Old 3/21/06, 12:26 PM
James Pence James Pence is offline
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Default GFCI's in Laundry room

I understand the NEC code requires GFCI's be used within 6' of water. Does the use of a GFCI in the laundry room create a problem having the washer plugged into it?
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Old 3/21/06, 12:50 PM
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Jeffrey R. Pope, CMI Jeffrey R. Pope, CMI is offline
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Default Re: GFCI's in Laundry room

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpence
I understand the NEC code requires GFCI's be used within 6' of water.
That wording is not used.

There are specific locations for GFCI requirements. The laundry is not included.



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Last edited by jpope; 2/28/07 at 3:15 PM..
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  #3  
Old 3/21/06, 2:26 PM
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Michael W. Gault Michael W. Gault is offline
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Default Re: GFCI's in Laundry room

Washer on a GFCI... might that be a bad thing?
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Old 3/21/06, 3:18 PM
Jae Williams Jae Williams is offline
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Default Re: GFCI's in Laundry room

NEC 210.8(A) All 125v, single phase, 15 and 20 ampere receptacles shall have Ground-Fault-Circuit –Interrupter (GFCI) protection for personnel in the following locations:

(1) Bathrooms (2) Garages (3) Outdoors (4) Crawlspaces
(5) Unfinished basements (6) Kitchens (7) Wet bar sinks
( Boathouses

It seems to me that I read somewhere the 2005 NEC included (9) Laundry Rooms--or did I just dream about it?



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Last edited by jwilliams4; 3/21/06 at 3:23 PM..
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Old 3/21/06, 3:47 PM
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Default Re: GFCI's in Laundry room

The laundry is not included specifically but it does mention "all wet areas or areas with a potential to become wet" ( I will resist the obvious immature joke ). I guess it wouldn't hurt to recommend having one in the laundry.



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Old 3/21/06, 3:49 PM
Greg Fretwell Greg Fretwell is offline
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Default Re: GFCI's in Laundry room

No Jae you are not trippin'
2005 does require GFCI 6' from laundry sinks. The only wiggle room for the washing machine is if it drains into a standpipe drain and there is no sink.
Otherwise you probably need a a new washing machine or you will be fixing you old one so it runs on a GFCI. A properly working one should but over the years they seem to develop high resistance ground faults. You have the same problem with refrigerator compressors. It is still a fault and the GFCI is only doing it's job.
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Old 3/21/06, 3:51 PM
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Default Re: GFCI's in Laundry room

The 2005 NEC for number 7 says "Laundry, utility, and wet bar sinks -- where the receptacles are installed within 1.8m (6 ft) of the outer edge of the sink."


Sometimes GFCI will trip when motors are connected from the startup surges.
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Old 3/21/06, 4:46 PM
Greg Fretwell Greg Fretwell is offline
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Default Re: GFCI's in Laundry room

No offense but it is an urban myth that motors cause GFCI trips. If your GFCI trips you have a grouind fault .,.. period.I have just about every power tool you can think of in my garage, including a washing machine and a fridge. They all run on GFCI
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Old 3/21/06, 4:55 PM
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Paul W. Abernathy, CMI Paul W. Abernathy, CMI is offline
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Default Re: GFCI's in Laundry room

Ok...lets burst that myth....lol.......the majority of plugs in garages run drills and so on and we all know they need to be GFCI......So as Greg said....purly a myth for the most part.

If a GFCI trips.......your butt better check it because something is wrong and it is a slim chance it is a motor...now could be a ground fault IN the motor...lol...

I think the issue was really AFCI's tripping because of motors and arcing and so on...which is also becoming a thing of the past as they advance forward.



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  #10  
Old 3/21/06, 6:55 PM
Larry Kage, CMI Larry Kage, CMI is offline
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Default Re: GFCI's in Laundry room

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Fretwell
No offense but it is an urban myth that motors cause GFCI trips.

If your GFCI trips you have a grouind fault .,.. period.

Worth repeating.
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Old 3/22/06, 4:31 AM
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Default Re: GFCI's in Laundry room

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
So why don't we just GFCI and AFCI protect everything in the house?
Why do we even have standard outlets around anymore?



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Old 3/22/06, 4:39 AM
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Russel Ray Russel Ray is offline
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Default Re: GFCI's in Laundry room

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Fretwell
No offense but it is an urban myth that motors cause GFCI trips. If your GFCI trips you have a grouind fault .,.. period.
Okay.
I think I can accept that.
But what if the GFCI trips only when one turns on a motor-using appliance and at no other time?
I've had many, many experiences where a disposal was plugged into a GFCI outlet and always--I mean always--tripped when the disposal was turned on. Once the GFCI was removed, the disposal worked fine with no breaker tripping in the panel or any other problems.
Have had similar problems with washing machines and dryers, even brand new appliances.

I also have had a few Clients call about outlets in the garage that did not work. Of course, they hadn't read the complete report about the GFCI and protected outlets in the garage. Once they reset the GFCI, though, they called back complaining about the GFCI always tripping when they were trying to use some appliance. I suggested that they have an electrician put in a dedicated circuit for their garage appliances (drill, saw, etc.). Problem solved.

I don't know. It's just that in 33 years of property renovations, I've had too much experience to just throw all that experience out the rear window. Wait. That would mean the rear window was broken. Okay, out the side window. After rolling the window down. With the window handle. This is a classic '64½ Mustang, you understand. I prefer my motor-using appliances be on dedicated non-GFCI circuits, but I'm open to further information and discussion.

Mythbusters, anyone?



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Old 3/22/06, 12:16 PM
Greg Fretwell Greg Fretwell is offline
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Default Re: GFCI's in Laundry room

Think about it a minute and you can usually answer your own question. A ground fault necessary to pop a GFCI is around 6ma, detected instantly. The fault necessary to trip a breaker is at least 15a and may need a half second or more at 175% of that to get past the "slow-blow" feature that allows us to start a motor (HACR rated breaker). You are just sending fault current down the grounding wire and wasting it as heat ... until it rises to the level that it trips the breaker. I really think that is one reason old refrigerators use more power than when they were new. There is a fireworks show going on inside that sealed compressor but we can't see it and until it either burns out the windings or trips the breaker we don't know about it.
I bet the freon in a fridge that trips GFCIs smells like burned sneekers.
In the case of disposals and washing machines I would suspect the combination of water and lint or dust is the path for fault current. Bear in mind this fault current can be from neutral to ground which goes unnoticed by the breaker. The GFCI and AFCI is also looking for neutral/ground faults.

Last edited by Greg Fretwell; 3/22/06 at 12:20 PM..
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Old 3/22/06, 1:22 PM
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Michael W. Gault Michael W. Gault is offline
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Default Re: GFCI's in Laundry room

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Fretwell
Think about it a minute and you can usually answer your own question. A ground fault necessary to pop a GFCI is around 6ma, detected instantly. The fault necessary to trip a breaker is at least 15a and may need a half second or more at 175% of that to get past the "slow-blow" feature that allows us to start a motor (HACR rated breaker). You are just sending fault current down the grounding wire and wasting it as heat ... until it rises to the level that it trips the breaker. I really think that is one reason old refrigerators use more power than when they were new. There is a fireworks show going on inside that sealed compressor but we can't see it and until it either burns out the windings or trips the breaker we don't know about it.
I bet the freon in a fridge that trips GFCIs smells like burned sneekers.
In the case of disposals and washing machines I would suspect the combination of water and lint or dust is the path for fault current. Bear in mind this fault current can be from neutral to ground which goes unnoticed by the breaker. The GFCI and AFCI is also looking for neutral/ground faults.
Not sure you answered a question here... Are you for GFCI's throughout the house? Do you believe motor starts (your old fridge analogy) trip GFCIs? Are those trips 'nuisance trips' or should I recommend a new refrigerator if the current ones' compressor is beginning to 'pull' a tad on startup and your "6ma" fault is detected...

And where do I begin to explain water and lint or dust as a conductor to ground (to a client) when her disposer trips the new GFCI's they installed but never tripped the old non GFCI circuits...

I'm confused...
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Old 3/22/06, 1:27 PM
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Default Re: GFCI's in Laundry room

Well, finally, someone besides me is confused. So maybe it is not the margaritas after all?



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