Ground and neutral on same bar?

[Karl E. Gerhauser]

Sorry this is my weakest subject. In question is the bottom left 220 breaker. Red and black are hooked to the breaker(pic1). The white wire is connected to the same bar as the bare copper wire(pic 2&3). The ground and neutral bar are connected by a copper bar(pic4). This wire was brought in with no clamps telling me it may be a homeowner installation. I could not determine what was powered by this wire to see connections on other end. Any help is appreciated, Thank you, Karl

[William E. Siegel]

Its linking the two neutral / ground bars. I see no problem with it.

[Karl E. Gerhauser]

To my knowlege all that is needed for 220 is 2 hots and a ground, why the extra heavy neutal hooked to the ground bar?

[Larry D. Kage]

Originally Posted by kgerhauser

To my knowlege all that is needed for 220 is 2 hots and a ground, why the extra heavy neutal hooked to the ground bar?

It may be feeding a remote panel.

[Bruce A. King]

The cable they used just had the extra white wire. The other end may have a 120V device that uses that neutral. Did they have a hot tub outside?

[Karl E. Gerhauser]

There is no remote panel. The only external item is a Solar hot water panel which is also plumbed with PB 2110.

[Marc D. Shunk]

40 amp breaker, from the looks of it. Popular size for an electric range or a small packaged spa.

[Larry D. Kage]

Originally Posted by kgerhauser

There is no remote panel. The only external item is a Solar hot water panel which is also plumbed with PB 2110.

Well, Karl, I know that you know what to report about that.

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

Looks like a common service-equipment install to me.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Karl,

Many situations could be presented to explain why their is a "grounded" conductor run...as marc says it could be for the range or it could be to something that has 240V but also has a timer on it that needs the 120V so thus a neutral is needed.....you may ask why does a Range need it...well the timers and many parts of the functions that control the range work on 120V and not 240V so that is why in many cases a "Grounded" conductor is run....so unless you can determine what that double pole is powering....I would not concern myself over the neutral's size.....but I would make a good case for WHY panels should be labeled properly and note that as such....if you can't tell what it is...chances are your client wont be able to either.

[Paul Dickerson]

Based on the pictures you posted, I would not write up anything...provided this is the service equipment.

I would write up a missing clamp, and I would verbally inform my clients that I suspect a non-electrician installed the circuit.

[Karl E. Gerhauser]

Thank you all, off of what you stated I realized this may be the 90+ furnace that looks new(it has a condensate pump system). The home had no GFCI, so I already called for eval. by an electrician and added for him to look at the amateur installation and lack of labeling. Defer, Defer, Defer. I was trying to understand it for my own edification. Everyone has been a great help, Thanks again. Larry, I know that you know, that I know. Karl.

[jtedesco1]

Looks like the MBJ on the left side was missing, and did you question the black tape at phase A and B terminations, and the tape covering the Hex Head on the left? What size were those SEC's?

See NEC Article 250 for Grounding and Bonding requirements.

I plan on taking the advice of many and will begin adding the NEC references for information only, so that everyone knows that there are rules that cover the situations you encounter.

[Frank M. Carrio, CMI]

Originally Posted by jtedesco1

Looks like the MBJ on the left side was missing, and did you question the black tape at phase A and B terminations, and the tape covering the Hex Head on the left? What size were those SEC's?

See NEC Article 250 for Grounding and Bonding requirements.

I plan on taking the advice of many and will begin adding the NEC references for information only, so that everyone knows that there are rules that cover the situations you encounter.

Joe,
Thank you for pointing that out.
I also noticed the "black tape" at the terminations and the tape covering the hex nut and I was going to say something but....I wanted to look up the NEC and I have just returned to the BB and I see that there are a lot of "threads" that I want to read before I respond to anything.

I have found that if I do a "Cut & Paste" of the pertinent sections of the IBC, IR, NEC etcetera it helps out a lot and cuts down on the non member lack of knowledge / contradictions.

Keep up the good work. It is GREATLY appreciated!

[jtedesco1]

Frank, you are welcomed and from now on everyone gets to see the National Electrical Code rules for references and for learning.

Mike go for it Code, is what they need.