Grounded conductors

[jtedesco1]

Are we finished now, and and have we stopped pissing in the wind, and can we go to the party or have a parade know?

I think the the InteNatchi Boat Ride is a good idea?

So long Cowboy!

[Frank M. Carrio, CMI]

Originally Posted by Mike Whitt

There is no mule in that picture. It takes a Jack and a mare to make a mule.
Well there certainly a JACKASS in the picture and it is wearing a hat!



Meet Abbie, she is my sweet little girl.
Yes.....I see the strong family resemblance!
Can you make something so beautiful?

I am always proud of my children as you can see she is so cute.
YUP!
Once again I agree.....she looks just like you! {Minus the hat of course!}

Since it takes a "Jack" and a Mare to make a Mule and this is ...in your words..... "My sweet little Girl." then I guess that your middle name must be "Jack"

Now there is one beautiful MULE

Edited for spelling

Mike,
You have come UNINVITED into someone's house {The NACHI BB} and started to sling *****!

You have contradicted yourself and insulted several of our RESPECTED members and they have responded.

Why don't you spare us the UNWANTED pictures of you and your family, and just pick up your marbles and leave!

Do the right thing!

[Mike Whitt]

Originally Posted by fcarrio

Mike,
You have come UNINVITED into someone's house {The NACHI BB} and started to sling *****!

You have contradicted yourself and insulted several of our RESPECTED members and they have responded.

Why don't you spare us the UNWANTED pictures of you and your family, and just pick up your marbles and leave!

Do the right thing!

Well I just don't think that I could have joined unless my memebership was approved.

It was Joe that invited me to join back before he was banned this last time. Ask him about it, I still have the PM he sent me from the other forum.

I haven't disrespected anyone but it is easy for even a child to see that I have been disrespected by a couple of you.

As to the picures, again it was Joe who ask for them.

Until the owners of this website ask me to leave I am here to stay.

Now take your own advice and Do the right thing!

[Frank M. Carrio, CMI]

Originally Posted by Mike Whitt

Well I just don't think that I could have joined unless my memebership was approved.

It was Joe that invited me to join back before he was banned this last time. Ask him about it, I still have the PM he sent me from the other forum.

I haven't disrespected anyone but it is easy for even a child to see that I have been disrespected by a couple of you.

As to the picures, again it was Joe who ask for them.

Until the owners of this website ask me to leave I am here to stay.

Now take your own advice and Do the right thing!

From post # 47 Quote: Joe Tedesco

Are we finished now, and and have we stopped pissing in the wind, and can we go to the party or have a parade know?

I think the the InterNACHI Boat Ride is a good idea?

So long Cowboy!
End Quote:

I think that the message is clear and Joe has changed his mind about you!
You have managed to make a lot of enemies in a very short time.

You have discredited yourself and NOTHING that you say will be taken at face value.

Are you always an unwelcome guest who overstays their welcome in other people's homes?

[jbushart]

Thanks, Mike and Joe.

For years, we have conducted a perpetual "urinating olympics" regarding the home inspector and the need to meticulously apply the NEC during his inspection. It has finally been resolved and we owe you two guys the thanks.

Both of you learned professional electrical inspectors who have first hand knowledge of...not only the NEC...but the thoughts behind the experts who wrote it, cannot agree on something as simple as this poll.

Since you have both degenerated to the level of name calling and personal insults, it is obvious that you have run out of facts to support your respective positions.

Unlike you two, many of us home inspectors have not been able to devote 60 plus years to the study of one book.

Unfortuantely for us, a residential structure has more in it to inspect than just the electrical system. We must have equal knowledge in plumbing, HVAC, foundations, windows and doors, roofs, attics, exteriors and the very demanding ability to communicate the condition of these systems with young, first time home owners in a way that they can understand.

You have demonstrated for us, with your expert disagreement over this mere sentence in the NEC, the needless futility for us to even pretend to try to be experts....and the waste of time it would be to even become one.

In just one St. Louis county (and 91 seperate municipalities therein)....to adopt your philosophy of the value of code in performing something other than a code inspection....I would have to memorize not only the NEC but the UPS and IRC....and each modification written into it and adopted by ordinance by each municipality.

And....for what? For an AHJ and I to have the same go-around as you two are having? No, thanks.

I voted "no" in this poll because it's early and I read the question to mean "Do I report" such things. I look for everything and explain many things to my client as we walk through the house. If I have verbally pointed out something that is "wrong" but was acceptable by code at the time it was installed, I do not always include it in my report so as to avoid these kind of stupid debates with "experts" that I cannot charge extra for. For instance, I am told that the 2008 NEC will require that the freezer in the garage be put on a GFCI. If that happens, I may point that out to my client, but I will not recommend that he change it.

We have a need for code inspectors. They are there when the building is built and when remodeling projects are done. Their jobs, if done correctly at the time, will ensure that the proper codes are applied at the time and they communicate that in their language to others concerned with compliance. That is not us.

My job as a home inspector includes informing my client to do a permit search to ensure that the modifications made to the house meet code. That's the extent of my concern with the code....that my client not inherit any violations that a future code inspector may compel him to rectify.

For you to be critical of a home inspector who applies, in 2008, an issue that was not code at the time the house was built.....is irrelevent to a home inspection, and indicative of your lack of knowledge of what a home inspection really is.

We report the conditions that we find in the systems within the home as they presently are....for the buyer is purchasing the home in that condition, as well.


When both of you are as proficient in plumbing, concrete, roofing, and siding as you are in electrics....then you will have the beginning of what you need to be critical of a home inspector.

[John McKenna]

The electrical issue always raises the question of what was allowed years ago and what is allowed now. Of all the systems and components in a house, the electrical system is one of the main items that is a safety concern. That being the case, if it can be shown that any part of an electrical system could be done a safer way (regardless of age or law) then I always advise my client of the most current methods, if it will make it safer. I would rather be challenged because I choose the side of caution and safety for what I said, than to be challenged for what I left unsaid and someone got hurt. "There is a safer method than double tapping". I doubt that this statement will kill many sales, and some electricians might scorn me, but if it makes a safer home, then I report it.

[sparksnmore]

Name calling is SOOO 2nd grade-ish and actually reflects back on the "caller"

[jtedesco1]

Originally Posted by sparksnmore

Name calling is SOOO 2nd grade-ish and actually reflects back on the "caller"

I agree, and anyone here who has identified that recently, may be also guilty in the highest degree of that type of behavior during past discussions!

Challenges from members are often overcrowded with backhanded remarks made by angry persons who never want to flush the toilet and move on. What we need here is easy and that is respect for one another and without mud slinging. I hope we can agree.

[Speedy Petey]

Originally Posted by sparksnmore

Name calling is SOOO 2nd grade-ish and actually reflects back on the "caller"

I TOTALLY agree. It seems there are two perfect examples of that here. Typical internet tough guys.


BTW Frank, the whole "OUR house...." thing is getting SO old.
This could be MY house too if I felt like paying the $25 or whatever it is. I just have absolutely NO reason to. I guess it is simply a $$$ thing then?

Guys like Mike, md, greg, etc, and myself come here to try and help. That's all. If a disagreement arises and we get call names and spit on. What, do we all have to agree all the time. I think not. I'm sorry, Joe T is an expert in his field, this does NOT mean he is infallible. Just because someone disagrees with someone like this does NOT make them a trouble maker.

[jtedesco1]

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey

I TOTALLY agree. It seems there are two perfect examples of that here. Typical internet tough guys.


BTW Frank, the whole "OUR house...." thing is getting SO old.
This could be MY house too if I felt like paying the $25 or whatever it is. I just have absolutely NO reason to. I guess it is simply a $$$ thing then?

Guys like Mike, md, greg, etc, and myself come here to try and help. That's all. If a disagreement arises and we get call names and spit on. What, do we all have to agree all the time. I think not. I'm sorry, Joe T is an expert in his field, this does NOT mean he is infallible. Just because someone disagrees with someone like this does NOT make them a trouble maker.

Peter: I agree, and for those who have answered some of the questions I have posted here related to just the electrical systems, I will ask you to look for those that remain without any reply and get them started by giving us your take on them.

[Joe Farsetta]

For all you electrical and and NEC experts out there, not one of you has answered my question with any degree of HONESTY. Mike Whitt(less) is a perfect example of electrical elitism. He and others preaching NEC "purity" pervert that very text to make arguments of convenience, supporting their own sloppiness in the workplace. WORSE than that is Mike's holier-than-thou position during this entire thread.

So, do I CARE if double lugging or ganging of neutrals was technically allowed by the NEC prior to 2002? No I dont. Is it a sound practice? You tell me? And dont quote unsubstantiated bull$**** that no one has been hurt by this practice.

If it was such a sound practice, why did the authors of the NEC change the rule in 2002? Bottom line is that there is data supporting this change. It did not involve the installation of new equipment, costing the consumer more (like AFCIs), so no one can argue that revenue is the driving force. It was driven by the need to halt the practice by electricians who continually fail to follow the manufacturers guidelines. They changed the rule (not really changed it, but ADDED this as an unacceptable practice). I suspect they ADDED this restriction to END this very argument. Prior to this, they relied on the installing electrician to actually READ the manufacturer's instructions and FOLLOW those specifications, absent of any "interpretations" or laziness. They also relied on the interpretation of the code inspector, may of whom are ignorant, lazy, underpaid, bought-off, or inept. The change was made for a REASON, which Whitless, in his infinite wisdom, fails to acknowledge.

So, WHY was this change made necessary? If it is not based on sound science, then WHY was it made? Someone please explain this. Whitless cannot or will not, because it deflates his bogus commentary. If he dares say that it was for political reasons, or any other not related to safety, then he INVALIDATES the authenticity of any rule related to safety for the ENTIRE code. If the code can be corrupted over something so insignificant as this, where he states there is NO valid reason behind it, then he should NOT be teaching ANYONE ANYTHING related to this document.

As to manufacturers guidelines, tell me which manufacturers have allowed this practice, ever. Please refer me to one document that ever said it was okay. I have never seen it, anywhere.

Now, I know the argument will be that there was simply not enough room on many of thise older panels to accomodate all those pesky neutral conductors. Bull$****. Gang the grounds and dedicate the neutrals. Plenty of room.

And, where's the excuse opon newer panels manufactured prior to 2002 where there was PLENTY of room? No excuse. None at all.

Mr. Whitless comes to this message board with his knowledge and attitude. He backs his position with the written word of the NEC, opinion, and rhetoric. I dont care about his horses or his photos. I dont CARE that he trains instructors who teach CODE. I dont care about his silly-***** dolls.

His is the EXACT argument I get from plumbers who have no clue regarding the relationship between the flue connections at furnaces and water heaters. They say "show me in the Code where it says that..." I point them to the gas appliance manufacturer's association guidelines and the installation instructions.

There is no room for elitists and purists on this message board. When someone says they will win the argument in court, pointing to the code and ignoring the manufacturers installation instructions, they PROVE how totally ignorant they are. I would openly challenge that jack***** in a courtroom any day. I would win. The NEC is open to interpretation and applicability. This is confirmed every day in every municipality where interpreatations of the NEC differ from lawn to lawn, inspector to inspector.

A manufacturer's guideline is absolute, and must be adhered to. Whitless misses this point, and stands on the written word of the NEC and the date stamp of the 2002 revisions. He is an *****.

Since this is MY house, he can either provide proof of acceptability from a panel manufacturer, or he can shut the f*ck up.

As to whether or not I or any other InterNACHI member is perceived by some non-member as acting unprofessionally because I called this jerk out; you can all stuff it. How dare any of you come to MY house and piss on my doorstep.

Whitless' argument sounds like something out of Spinal Tap.

"You see. most amplifiers go to number 10. Ours go to number 11".

Here's how it would play in front of a judge or jury...

Q: "Mr. Whitless, why is it acceptable to double lug these neutrals again?

A: "My amplifier goes to number 11... and the NEC says nothing about double lugging being an unacceptable practice prior to 2002."

Q: "But Mr Whitless, the manufacturer specifically states that only a single neutral conductor per lug... Surely you acklowledge this."

A: "that panel was installed in 2001. The Code said it was bad in 2002. My amplifier goes all the way to number eleven. Theirs goes to number ten, you see..."

Q: "So you're saying it was good in 2001, and bad in 2002, even though the manufacturer of this equipment said is was bad in 2001. It this correct?"

A: "My amplifier goes all the way to number eleven. I play louder than they can..."

Q: "But what of the UL rating on this equipment? UL performs its initial testing by following the manufacturers specifications. Otherwise, the equipment may fail. Surely you know this..."

A: "UL's amplifiers only go to number ten. Mine goes to number eleven..."

[Speedy Petey]

Originally Posted by jfarsetta

Since this is MY house, he can either provide proof of acceptability from a panel manufacturer, or he can shut the f*ck up.

As to whether or not I or any other InterNACHI member is perceived by some non-member as acting unprofessionally because I called this jerk out; you can all stuff it.

How dare any of you come to MY house and piss on my doorstep.

You know what? I completely disagree with this.
This is just as much MY house as it is yours. We both have to follow cerain rules of decorum, but you are held to an even higher standard of professionalism because YOU signed you name to your rules. As I asid, all this name calling is quite unprofessional and counter to the NACHI standard.
All your membership does is give you more options and leverage. Which is fine. This is still a PUBLIC forum. If this bothers you SO much why not lobby the NACHI brass to close the forums to everyone but members. This is done all the time.
I am a licensed ham radio operator. I read quite a bit on QRZ.com and their forums. Because I persoanlly chooses not to use my call sign publicly on the foums I am restricted from posting om many of the boards there. This does not bother me as those forums are way to "cliquey".
This can be done here as well. Until then I'll stick around and try and help the majority here who don't mind some "outside" help.

[Frank M. Carrio, CMI]

Quote: Originally Posted by jfarsetta:
Since this is MY house, he can either provide proof of acceptability from a panel manufacturer, or he can shut the f*ck up.

As to whether or not I or any other InterNACHI member is perceived by some non-member as acting unprofessionally because I called this jerk out; you can all stuff it.

How dare any of you come to MY house and piss on my doorstep.
End Quote

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey

You know what? I completely disagree with this.
This is just as much MY house as it is yours.
NOT HARDLY!
YOU ARE UNINVITED AND ARE AN UNWELCOME "GUEST"

We both have to follow cerain rules of decorum,
Don't make me laugh! It is like the pot calling the kettle black!
It is clearly obvious that some of you do not follow any rules of decorum.

but you are held to an even higher standard of professionalism because YOU signed you name to your rules.
It is VERY apparant that some of our UNINVITED guests think that they can come to OUR BB and just make a complete fool of themselves, call us names, insult us, and then they are surprised AND "BAFFELED" when we respond in kind, and then CRY about it!

As I asid, all this name calling is quite unprofessional and counter to the NACHI standard.
So some non members like to come here and call us names, and insult us and when we respond in kind then "We / NACHI members" are the ones in the wrong! What a joke!

Kind of like a little kid hiding behind the bushes throwing rocks and when you are caught and some one slaps your face you cry "Thats not Fair, not fair, boo hoo hoo Not Fair!"

All your membership does is give you more options and leverage. Which is fine. This is still a PUBLIC forum. If this bothers you SO much why not lobby the NACHI brass to close the forums to everyone but members.
"NACHI" believes in "Freedom of Speech"! That is ONE of the reasons that this BB is so great!

But ....... some uninvited guests / non members take "Freedom of Speech" as a sign of weakness and to mean that they can come in here and be abusive and they are shocked and cry foul when we do not lay down and take the beating that they want to dish out.
This "Thread" is a perfect example.
This is done all the time.
Yes it is! The other Bulletin Boards are a perfect example. You and Mike Whitt would have been kicked out long, long ago!

I am a licensed ham radio operator. I read quite a bit on QRZ.com and their forums. Because I persoanlly chooses not to use my call sign publicly on the foums I am restricted from posting om many of the boards there. This does not bother me as those forums are way to "cliquey".
We are not "cliquey" but rather the nations largest group of Certified and professional Home Inspectors.
If we were a "clique" you would not have been allowed to post a single word on this BB.

This can be done here as well. Until then I'll stick around and try and help the majority here who don't mind some "outside" help.

Who said that "The majority" want to have anything to do with you?
{You think very highly of yourself don't you!}


Who said that YOU have "helped" in this discussion?

All you have done is to provide some unsolicited condescending worthless "advice".