Grounding rod connection from meter box

[Mike Whitt]

Paul

From the point 60 inches where the pipe enters the building to the point where there is120 inches of pipe covered outside is the electrode which gives a total of not less than 180 inches of metal pipe that is part of the metal pipe electrode.

In the Holt slide the Grounding Electrode Conductor comes from the panel and is landing on the interior side of the water meter not on the exterior side all within the first 60 inches and a bonding jumper is completing the path of the grounding electrode as outlined in 250.52(A)(1).

In 250.52(A) (1) there is wording that states:
A metal underground water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any metal well casing effectively bonded to the pipe) and electrically continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and the bonding conductors.

The bonding jumper outlined in the Holt slide would be fulfilling the underlined part of section 250,52(A)(1).

Section 250.53(D)(1) is what I have been addressing and this section is to fulfill the requirements of 250.104(A).
In the Holt slide the pipe from the connection of the Grounding Electrode Conductor and the interior metal water pipe is all metal water pipe and there is no need now to install a bonding jumper for 250.104 as the Grounding Electrode Conductor has fulfilled this requirement.

If there was no water meter or other removable device on the metal water pipe then only one conductor would need to be installed which would fulfill both requirements 250.52 and 250.104.

As cities keep expanding their limits further and further out encompassing more and more older houses that used wells with metal piping systems and these houses are converted to the city water system with a nonmetallic pipes supplying the metal water pipes that are on the interior of the house, there seems to be more and more confusion on the use of bonding jumpers around removable devices.

I am seeing both Home Inspectors as well as the Electrical Inspectors calling out the bonding jumpers around things like removable filters and other such items. The grounding electrode is no longer there as the nonmetallic pipe is not being used as a grounding electrode so there is no need to bond around these filters.

The requirement in 250.104(A)(1) does not have a requirement to bond around removable devices and the only requirement is for the point of bonding to be accessible. This means that the original conductor that was installed for the grounding electrode conductor will now sacrifice as the bonding conductor required by 250.104(A)(1).

We must remember that Part III section 250.50 through 250.70 addresses the Grounding Electrode and the Grounding Electrode Conductor including any bonding jumpers involved with the grounding electrode system while Part V sections 250.90 through 250.106 addresses Bonding requirements.
As you have pointed out these are two complete and different aspects of Article 250.

A very good point Paul as there needs to be a better understanding between the two. If I could I would give you another greenie for pointing this out and helping to better understand the difference between bonding and grounding.

[Peter C. Russell]

I haven't read the entire post but have this to ask, can the grounding rod be inside buried or driven into the ground and then the slab poured around it?

This was not grounded to the water line, well on the other side of the house.

House was built in the 70s and the ground wire appears to come into the house and is then attached to the rod. This was also in a finished basement with limited visibility.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Mike,
lol...but I am not talking about non-metalic pipe...I am simply talking about the image I posted...lol........if indeed the electrician runs the GEC to the water pipe electrode ( which has 10' in the earth.... and present ) then it needs to be used....termination of the GEC on the wrong side of the water meter is not going to comply with 250.68(B) without a bonding jumper...their is no way around that issue.

IN regards to the other items.....not debating any of it...only my stance on the image I have posted....lol

[Mike Whitt]

Yes I agree with what you are saying about the slide by Mike Holt.

I remember when I first saw that slide I objected to the point of attachment of the Grounding Electrode Conductor but I was set straight at the IAEI meeting in Cocoa Florida.
It was there that I got a better understanding of the issues of metal water pipes by some of the members from Code Panel 5.

As someone said, “Stick with us and we will make you the other Mike” lol

Now let me see if I have got this right

Mike Holt the Guru’s Instructor
Paul Abernathy the Guru
Mike Whitt the Guru’s Guru

Now if that didn’t get some laughs I am going to quit my comedy act.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

lol.......we got ourself a STAGE act fella......now we just need to take it on the ROAD....lol

[Frank L. Bartlo]

That makes sense, Mike. It certainly seems a lot easier to connect the grounding rod from the meter can than from the service panel.

[Mike Whitt]

Originally Posted by fbartlo

That makes sense, Mike. It certainly seems a lot easier to connect the grounding rod from the meter can than from the service panel.

In my area this is how everyone does the electrodes, the rod from the meter and everything else from the panel but, in some areas the meter is not allowed to be used at all which means that all the electrodes have to hit in the panel.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Frank,

Acceptable in either location.....sad to say more and more POCO's do not want the GEC to the GE within their enclosures even if the NEC® says it is fine. So they end up swaying the local AHJ into their compliance wishes and well then the waters get MUDDY......

But it is clear it can be connected to the GE at the meter, the service panel or even the mast head grounded conductor point as well.....