Help proof the safety section on inspecting electrical panels: read here

[Marcel R. Cyr]

Good PPT Barry.
All of this is normally followed on Commercial Electrical I have seen in the past.

My curiousity revolved around this statement;

1 - Have the owner provide written permission to turn off the power.
2 - The agreement would protect the inspector against subsequent damages that may result.
3 - The inspector would not have to reset or reprogram items.
4 - With this in hand, turn off power, pull the cover, inspect, reinstall cover, turn on power.

Those steps all comply with NEC, manufacturers and OSHA.

[John Cahill]

Originally Posted by mcyr

Good PPT Barry.
All of this is normally followed on Commercial Electrical I have seen in the past.

My curiousity revolved around this statement;

1 - Have the owner provide written permission to turn off the power.
2 - The agreement would protect the inspector against subsequent damages that may result.
3 - The inspector would not have to reset or reprogram items.
4 - With this in hand, turn off power, pull the cover, inspect, reinstall cover, turn on power.

Those steps all comply with NEC, manufacturers and OSHA.

Good technical point Marcel. Do you think any of the agencies would oppose any of the steps mentioned? Actually I left out PPE. I believe it best to wear PPE even when the breaker is off. The service conductors are still hot.

You can research OSHA if desired. http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/electrical/index.html

The point of the entire thread is inspectors pull covers on energized equipment when advised not to.

[Kenton H. Shepard, CMI]

Originally Posted by jcahill

3 - The inspector would not have to reset or reprogram items.

Who is responsible for having that done?
This would be a lot simpler if panel manufacturers would design panels so that screws cannot come into contact with conductors. Wouldn't be difficult to do either.

Good link Barry, thanks.

[Marcel R. Cyr]

I have the whole book (OSHA), and addresses all safety procedures and safety training by employers that have electricians working on live panels. But no where does it require to shut the main breaker to remove the dead front on 600 V or less panels.

Home Inspectors do not work on live panels, they just remove the dead front and observe, nothing else.

If one needs to shut the main breaker to remove the dead front, he should leave it alone and disclaim it.
I will continue to remove them. And I will not shut the main off.
Certain safety procedures are required to do this and should be followed.

Here is an electrician installing CT's in a 1200 amp live panel.





Inachi has provided this course on safety, maybe more should read it and get more safety seminars under their belt before attempting removing deadfronts. And hopefully they keep their hands and fingures out of the panel.

One has to know what he is doing if he plans on continuing removing panel covers.

[Kenton H. Shepard, CMI]

Originally Posted by jcahill

That's the point. You have the right to accept the risk. Do not however impose your perception of risk on others IF your opinion disagrees with the recommendations of experts.

Home inspection advises home owners about safety improvements yet inspectors ignore their own well being by accepting the risk as part of the job. Its a bravado or savior response. If you want to do it fine . . . but don't ask for donations for the poor fool who gets injured or dies from taking unneeded risks.

All arguing aside, all it will take is for one inspector to get killed / maimed and a lawyer to sue the hell out of the State agency or trade association who specifies or endorses unsafe practices. Then it will change.

Inspectors are idiots for taking these risks. I am an idiot for still taking them. I am hoping the industry will allow us to stop being idiots.

From one idiot to another have a safe day.

I'm not an idiot.
I was a carpenter for 30 years, working up high without fall protection, working around heavy equipment, and working with dangerous tools. I understood the dangers and had a certain comfort level with those things. If these things had exceeded my comfort level, even though they were standard practices at the time and place I was working, I would have refused to do them. If that made me too inefficient to do my job, then I'd be down the road. Enough times down the road, and I'd be looking for a different line of work.
I don't want any inspectors to be injured, but home inspection is inherently unsafe; we work on ladders, we enter confined spaces, we operate gas and oil-fired equipment, we wind up in yards with mean dogs when there was supposed to be no dog, and we work around electricity.
It takes courage, situational awareness and education to do what we do without getting hurt. If someone doesn't feel comfortable removing a dead front cover without shutting off power to the main bus... don't do it. We're all independent, no one is going to be thrown out of InterNACHI for refusing to remove a dead front cover. The Standards are guidelines, they're not written in stone. Basically, it's both a personal and a business decision. The Standards are written to protect both the client and the inspector. There are some fine lines there that might require an inspector to think and act for themselves.
This business is about developing good judgement in a number of ways. InterNACHI doesn't mandate life or death issues for its members. We work to help them develop good judgement and trust that they can decide for themselves what best for them.
I understand how you feel, John. You don't want people to be hurt and I don't either. I just don't think there's any way to make home inspection really safe without transferring that risk to our clients. I think the best way to make it safer is through educating inspectors.

[Marcel R. Cyr]

Well said Kenton.

[John Cahill]

NEMA Standards PB 1.1-2007 for panelboards rated less than 600 volts or less.

http://products.schneider-electric.u...008926803e397b

NEMA includes
Eaton Electrical Inc.—Pittsburgh, PA
GE—Plainville, CT
Hubbell, Inc.—Orange, CT
Milbank Manufacturing Company—Kansas City, MO
Penn Panel & Box Company—Collingdale, PA
Reliance Controls Corporation—Racine, WI
Siemens Energy & Automation, Inc.—Alpharetta, GA
Square D Company—Palatine, IL

Pardon the caps but I copied it.

WARNING—HAZARDOUS VOLTAGES IN ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT CAN CAUSE SEVERE PERSONAL INJURY OR DEATH. UNLESS OTHERWISE SPECIFIED, INSPECTION AND MAINTENANCE SHOULD ONLY BE PERFORMED ON PANELBOARDS AND EQUIPMENT TO WHICH POWER HAS BEEN TURNED OFF, DISCONNECTED AND ELECTRICALLY ISOLATED SO THAT NO ACCIDENTAL CONTACT CAN BE MADE WITH ENERGIZED PARTS. FOLLOW ALL MANUFACTURER'S WARNINGS AND INSTRUCTIONS.

Marcel, I suspect OSHA requires manufacturer instruction to be followed.

Kenton, membership in INACHI requires compliance with the SoP. The SoP requires removal of panel covers by implication in the limitations. In order to do that properly one must turn off the panel. That is what proper safety training dictates. If one espouses proper training then this cannot be ignored.

Kenton and Marcel, you two can rodeo all you want. I am happy you have made it this far without injury. To the new inspectors out there: its about understanding correct procedure. Never ever should an inspector assume any of a clients risk at the expense of their own safety in order to do an inspection. That expectation is inconsiderate and misinformed. The inspector should be provided the same safety courtesy as the client.

Good luck to all. I'm off to a rodeo to watch a clown get in a rubber barrel in front of a 2,000 pound bull. It's his job to do it. Pay me enough and I might do it.

[Marcel R. Cyr]

Good find John and Happy New Year by the way.


I think the title tells the story here, though.

General Instructions for Proper Installation, Operation, and Maintenance of Panelboards Rated 600 Volts or Less

Also, it seems to exclude residential panels.

SCOPE
This publication covers single panelboards or groups of panel units suitable for assembly in the form of
single panelboards, including buses, and with or without switches or automatic overload protective
devices (fuses or circuit breakers), or both. These units are used in the distribution of electricity at 600
volts and less with:
1600—ampere mains or less
1200—ampere branch circuits or less

Specifically excluded are live-front panelboards, panelboards employing cast enclosures for special
service conditions, and panelboards designed primarily for residential and light commercial service
equipment.

It appears to me that these guidelines should be followed if you are to install and maintain such panel boards.
And the one's that do, should follow what said here:

3.2 QUALIFIED PERSONNEL
Installation, operation, and maintenance of panelboards should be conducted only by qualified personnel.
3.3 DEFINITION OF QUALIFIED PERSONNEL
For purposes of these guidelines, a qualified person is one who is familiar with the installation, construction,
and operation of the equipment and the hazards involved. In addition, the person is:
3.3.1 Requirements

Knowledgeable of the requirements of the

National Electrical Code and of all other applicable codes, laws,

and standards.

3.3.2 Established Safety Practices
Trained and authorized to test, energize, clear, ground, tag, and lockout circuits and equipment in
accordance with established safety practices.
3.3.3 Protective Equipment
Trained in the proper care and use of protective equipment such as rubber gloves, hard hat, safety glasses

or face shields, and flash resistant clothing in accordance with established safety practices.

But as I have mentioned earlier,

We do not install, maintain, work on, We Just Observe And Note Defective Installation that would contribute to the safety of the occupants.

All copied from;
http://products.schneider-electric.u...008926803e397b

[John Cahill]

Originally Posted by mcyr

We Just Observe And Note Defective Installation that would contribute to the safety of the occupants.

Funny how you just created a new trade group. The International Association of Certified Just Observers and Noters of Defects. Sounds like a parainspector title. IACJOND.org

Point taken. You point out the value of human safety is defined by an exclusion to residential applications. Next year I'll check out some of the warning labels on the new residential boards. Happy new year back at you. Off to the hockey games.

[John Cahill]

Well heck. The kids are not ready to leave yet.

It does take a bit of drilling but residential panel or load center instructions are available.

http://www.eaton.com/Electrical/USA/...ters/index.htm

I think the label says "turn off main power before opening panel". That might apply to working on or just looking.

I think what we are debating is getting off track. I do not think the Standards should imply the requirement to pull a panel cover without turning off power. I agree turning off power is difficult within the scope of an inspection. However in effect we asking inspectors to do something the panel label says don't. I am totally OK with you or anyone pulling cover on a hot panel but oppose the implication others should do as you do via the SoP.

Kids are yelling at me now. Off to hockey.

[John Cahill]

Maybe a good site, http://www.arcflash.me/arc-flash-safety.php Lots of info but they are selling label machines. I will let you know if the book is good.

More research shows variation. Some panel manufacturers say turn off power and some say warn of arc flash and remind of PPE. I suppose the dilemma is what does a multi-inspector firm with a workman's comp responsibility do if the panel says "shut off power"? If the employer gives the employee PPE and he gets hurt he could still be up a creek if the panel said "turn it off".

Take care Marcel and Kenton. Thanks for your contributions to the forum.

Off to the Cowboy game now (big screen of course). Dad burn Cowboy tickets cost more than a home inspection (almost).

[John Cahill]

Another great public domain source. Its probably already somewhere on the site.

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2009-113/