Hot breaker

[David A. Andersen]

Technically

But when you can tell what the cause is by just looking at the scan, why not report it?

The electrician (without TI) has little to go on to correct the situation.
Y not report, the source of heat "appears" to be from a loose connection at the wire connection etc?

[Frank P. Newman]

Originally Posted by dandersen

But when you can tell what the cause is by just looking at the scan, why not report it?

The electrician (without TI) has little to go on to correct the situation.
Y not report, the source of heat "appears" to be from a loose connection at the wire connection etc?

That is your option; however, by stating that you know the cause you are taking on a bit more liability. In any event I agree we should use words like "appears to be.." or "may be.. " or something similar.

Electricians would approach the resolution of the problem in various ways depending on how he is equipped. Assuming you include your IR image in your report, it would give him a good start

[David A. Andersen]

by stating that you know the cause you are taking on a bit more liability.

Leaving the house in the morning is a liability

My point is that you use a TI scan, then tell the client to get it looked at and expect someone to fix it... (nothing more)

Put on your electrician hat.
You have a hot breaker to evaluate.
Nothing is burnt, just warm.
1st you check how tight the wire is attached.
Then you pull the breaker. Nothing to see here.
Do you replace the breaker because you can't find anything or do you tell the owner that there is nothing wrong and the HI is nuts.

The latter is generally what happens.

If you have been "trained" in TI, you can accurately (100%) tell if it is; a heavily loaded circuit, loose wire connection, loose buss connection, bad breaker. There is no added liability here except that your doing and reporting more than not talking about it in the first place (unless you screw up because you don't know what your doing like reporting on some reflection or something).

Just my opinion.

I like to not lay the groundwork for an argument with the trades.
Knowing all good and well that the electrician will not likely show up with a TI, and I am doing a specialized inspection, I think it is my job to also tell the electrician what is wrong so he can fix it instead of making him look like a dumb *** when he can't find the problem in the visible spectrum of light.

You can't be playing the "Limited Home Inspection" game when you go past the limits.
If your going to use TI, take on the responsibility and liability with it.

[Frank P. Newman]

If you wish to tell the electrician what you believe is the cause and are confortable in doing so, then go ahead and do it. However, electricians have been repairing panels for many years without the benefit of TI. Here's what I think would happen ....

- you report that breaker #23 appears to be 'hot'.
- electrician opens panel, puts finger on breaker case.
- if it feels hot, he will remove it and inspect the breaker clips and bus.
- If both look ok, he will replace with a new breaker, wait several minutes to see how hot the breaker gets then tell the homeowner he has 'fixed' it.

Not necessarily the best way to proceed, but real-world.

[David A. Andersen]

I often see it go the other way...

"Your just a HI, what would you know"?

I get the calls from the client stating the electrician can't find anything wrong and he says your nuts!

I had a client call three electricians to change out a breaker in the outdoor HVAC disconnect (only three breakers) that I found (before IR).

She then called me to ask who was going to pay the bills as no one found anything wrong.

I was in the neighborhood and swung by, pulled the breaker and handed it to her. It looked like a chunk of charcoal inside and the buss was pitted.

She asked why they couldn't find it.

"There are some questions I just can't answer"!

The heat receptors in your hand have greater sensitivity that most IR cameras in use out there. The problem is the hand is not always properly calibrated, or overridden by the brain.

Post IR; there is no more arguing with the electricians.

It is my "job" not just to take the pretty IR scan, but to read it and tell them what the problem is.
If someone can't do that, it is my opinion they are just a home inspector with a piece of equipment they don't know how to use.

[Frank P. Newman]

I certainly agree that a home inspector should not reply on a 'digit test' to locate a hot breaker - in fact most should not touch anything inside the panel at all. I also agree that it is good to have definitive data to give the client. Personally I use an IR thermometer and can easly identify hot spots that way. True, I cannot give them a picture, but it gets all the informaion that is required. However, as a H.I. what I report is my observation, without saying in absolute terms how it should be repaired or that anything absolutely has to be replaced. So far, I had had no kickback on any such things I have reported from electricians or clients. Should that happen I am fully prepared and willing to meet the electrician at the house to resolve the problem together. If it was hot when I reported it, it will still be hot when I return and it will be repaired.

Again, I am not saying H.Is not fully experienced in electrical work should proceed in this manner - each should proceed in accordance with his experience and training, consistent with safe inspection practices.