Installing GFCI in garage with no ground

[David A. Andersen]

Now I know I can trick it by connecting the ground t the neutral, but I know that is wrong.

That can "trick" you into an electrical hazard! It's not just wrong.

[cyezza]

Originally Posted by Mike Whitt

No one can test a GFCI device with one to those plug-in testers period.

Yes it might trip the device and let you know that is on a circuit protected by a GFCI device but it DOES NOT test the device.

If you are using one of the testers and stating that a circuit is GFCI protected just because it tripped using the plug-in tester then STOP immediately.

The ONLY way to test a GFCI device for proper function is to use the trip button on the device.

OK, Why are selling Them? Please explain

[David P. Valley]

Originally Posted by Mike Whitt

No one can test a GFCI device with one to those plug-in testers period.

Yes it might trip the device and let you know that is on a circuit protected by a GFCI device but it DOES NOT test the device.

If you are using one of the testers and stating that a circuit is GFCI protected just because it tripped using the plug-in tester then STOP immediately.

The ONLY way to test a GFCI device for proper function is to use the trip button on the device.

I disagree....When you are pressing the black trip button on the cheap 3-light testers, they are still placing a small load between the Load side HOT and the equipment grounding conductor. I'll always test the GFCI's with my cheap 3-light tester until someone can prove me wrong.

The .gov site tells the public....

To test a GFCI....

• Plug a nightlight into the outlet and turn it on.
• Press the "TEST" button on the GFCI outlet. Did the light go out? If not, replace the GFCI.
• Press the "RESET" button. Did the light come back on? If not, replace the GFCI.

[cyezza]

Originally Posted by dvalley

I disagree....When you are pressing the black trip button on the cheap 3-light testers, they are still placing a small load between the Load side HOT and the equipment grounding conductor. I'll always test the GFCI's with my cheap 3-light tester until someone can prove me wrong.

The .gov site tells the public....

To test a GFCI....

• Plug a nightlight into the outlet and turn it on.
• Press the "TEST" button on the GFCI outlet. Did the light go out? If not, replace the GFCI.
• Press the "RESET" button. Did the light come back on? If not, replace the GFCI.

I agree with David.

[relliott]

I test with both , as I have read that either will do the job.
It is simply easier to trip with a three light tester once you have it in place checking for current.
Not a big issue.

[Greg Fretwell]

These testers are "indicators" that will give you information that might be useful but you have to understand the limitation of the test.
In the case of a GFCI they do essentually the same thing as the test button on the device. If it trips the GFCI, you can believe the GFCI is working. If it doesn't and the test button on the device does you probably have a wiring problem. Good to know but not an indication the GFCI is bad. If you show "no ground" that is probably all that is wrong. If you are indicating a ground you either have a "ground" that won't pass 5ma but will pass the micro amps you need for a neon or you have a bootleg ground.
SureTest is a better "indicator" but you still need to understand how it works and the limitations before you leap at conclusions.

In the case of AFCIs and the voodoo they use to detect an arc, plug in testers are fairly useless. Maybe some day when they standardize this device and get away from proprietary algorythms they may have a tester that really works.

[relliott]

They still help alot

[Mike Whitt]

Originally Posted by dandersen

OK, out with it!

Originally Posted by dandersen

Where did you come up with this?
I need to go sue someone for my three light testers that I have used all these years.

Originally Posted by cyezza

OK, Why are selling Them? Please explain

Sorry Gentlemen but after I posted this morning the wife told me not to forget the date I had in the kitchen.

It three light tester will indicate that the circuit is on a GFCI circuit but it does not test the proper level that the test button test at.
The light tester might have a short to ground of far too much amperage than is allowed. It also tests to the equipment grounding conductor not to the source as a true test does.

The test button on the device test for the proper amperage and also does the test to the source for a true imbalance.

Originally Posted by dvalley

I disagree....When you are pressing the black trip button on the cheap 3-light testers, they are still placing a small load between the Load side HOT and the equipment grounding conductor. I'll always test the GFCI's with my cheap 3-light tester until someone can prove me wrong.

Originally Posted by dvalley

The .gov site tells the public....

To test a GFCI....
Plug a nightlight into the outlet and turn it on.
Press the "TEST" button on the GFCI outlet. Did the light go out? If not, replace the GFCI.
Press the "RESET" button. Did the light come back on? If not, replace the GFCI.

David as can be seen by the instructions you posted the government as you referred to states, “Press the "TEST" button on the GFCI outlet.”
This is the only true test that the GFCI device is working at the proper amperage.

[Greg Fretwell]

The QO GFCI I took apart seems to be using 10k to trip it with the test. That is 12ma

[William J. Decker]

I would ask how one is able to get a tester into a two prong receptacle. The original poster stated that the garage had no ground. Was he using three pronged receptacles on circuits without a ground. This is a no-no.

Three prong receptacles should only be used on grounded circuits.

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

Originally Posted by wdecker

I would ask how one is able to get a tester into a two prong receptacle. The original poster stated that the garage had no ground. Was he using three pronged receptacles on circuits without a ground. This is a no-no.

Three prong receptacles should only be used on grounded circuits.

I know here if you have Knob and tube the electric authority recommends you put in a GFCI to protect all receptacles down stream.
I have never seen a two prong GFCI.
I guess the people can seal the Grnd hole with silicone caulk?
The recepticals need to identified as GFCI proteced.
.... Cookie

[Greg Fretwell]

If you have a GFCI, you can use 3 prong receptacles.

This is also one of the rare cases where a ground electrode would be of some value. It would not trip the breaker from an overcurrent but it would trip a GFCI.

[Mike Whitt]

Originally Posted by Greg Fretwell

If you have a GFCI, you can use 3 prong receptacles.

This is also one of the rare cases where a ground electrode would be of some value. It would not trip the breaker from an overcurrent but it would trip a GFCI.

The GFCI never trips by use of the grounding electrode or the equipment grounding conductor in normal operation.

What makes it trip is an inblance between the Hot and Neutral conductors. This is why it is not proper to test a GFCI device with one to those plug-in testers.

[jtedesco1]

Here's the UL Information related to testing a GFCI.

[cyezza]

Originally Posted by wdecker

I would ask how one is able to get a tester into a two prong receptacle. The original poster stated that the garage had no ground. Was he using three pronged receptacles on circuits without a ground. This is a no-no.

Three prong receptacles should only be used on grounded circuits.

The garage had 3 prong outlets, clearly labeled that outlets are ungrounded. I did not install the outlets, they were existing at the time of purchase.