K&T splice.

[Ernest E. Garcia, Jr.]

Guys I am unable to verify if this Splice is soldered and spliced correctly I am going to have to defer, what do you guys do with these splices that you can't see?

[Ernest E. Garcia, Jr.]

oops here is photo!

[ccbrands1]

Originally Posted by egarcia1

Guys I am unable to verify if this Splice is soldered and spliced correctly I am going to have to defer, what do you guys do with these splices that you can't see?

you answered you're own question and didn't even know it.

state that you cannot verify the connection and defer.

IMO...i'de defer based on the presence of K & T alone.

[apfaff]

I know I will get some flack for this but I always recommend a full evaluation and replacement of any K&T.

Every remodel I have done with K&T present revealed more scary crap than you could imagine hidden within the walls. Chances are it has been added to and modified so much it needs replacement. I have tried to trace it on some jobs and isolate the problem, but I found it was strung in the most unpredictable ways. It shares a neutral for several circuits and it can be hard to distinguish.

Don’t bother diagnosing...the home has knob and tube wiring in use… replace it.

[David P. Valley]

I have the following information (in my 64 page manual) that is included in every report...


J.) Existing Knob & Tube Wiring

Knob and tube wiring gets its name from the way it’s installed. There are ceramic tubes for wires that run through any lumber framing and knobs when the wires run along or next to lumber framing. The two wires (there is no ground wire) are separated about four inches apart, one is the black “hot”, and the other is the white “neutral” (although some knob & tube wires are not different colors). The connections for knob & tube wiring are open and visible. The wires are spliced and soldered together with older style fibrous electrical tape around the splices. Knob & tube wiring was installed in houses up until about 1945, although in rural areas until about 1950.
As I said, knob and tube wiring does not have a ground wire. A ground is necessary if you are plugging in appliances that have a third prong in the plug. However, if the knob and tube wiring is limited to bedrooms, living room, dining room, etc, this is not necessarily a hazard. Plugging in a two prong lamp, TV, or clock is just as safe as a three prong grounded outlet.
Knob and tube wiring is not necessarily dangerous. If it was installed properly, with the insulation in good condition and not abused with over splicing and connections, it can provide many more years of reliable service. It is wiring that has been abused that is the potential hazard. On its own, knob & tube wiring is not inherently a problem. If the knob & tube wiring is on top of the attic floor, it could be easily nicked or the insulation could be worn off, causing a safety hazard. If the knob & tube wiring is in a traveled area, even for “just storage”, I highly recommend it be protected or replaced.

Although knob & tube is a workable system, and safe when installed and used properly, there are some concerns with this system…

Ø There’s no ground wire (for more modern lifestyle requirements and safety)
Ø A fear exists that the black and white wires can make contact (a potential fire and safety hazard),
Ø The rubber and cloth insulation around the knob & tube wiring breaks down over time and becomes brittle (a potential fire and safety hazard)
Ø It would be too costly to maintain or even install this type of wiring today
Ø More importantly perhaps, some insurance companies are now refusing to provide home owners insurance on houses with existing knob & tube wiring.
Ø It can not be run in or under insulation. This often happens when outside walls or attics are insulated. Old wiring was installed in open spaces so that it would stay cool. The insulation around the wires was made of rubber that burns at a relatively low temperature. If surrounded by house insulation, the wires will not cool and could heat up enough to burn. It is important that if an old house is to be insulated that any knob and tube wiring be re-wired first.

Many things that we plug in have a three prong plug. The large round prong is the ground. Those little three to two prong adaptors bypass the ground safety circuit. This is a particularly bad idea if you are plugging in a computer because computers dissipate harmful static electricity through the ground wire. Without a true ground, you’re putting yourself and your equipment at risk.
Using knob and tube wiring for wall outlets is where hazards are more likely to occur. Everyday items in the bathroom can quickly overload a 15 amp circuit. A 1500 watt hair dryer and a 300 watt curling iron plus a light bulb exceed 15 amps.

A cost effective strategy in old homes is to abandon any of the electric outlets wired with knob and tube and have new grounded outlets installed with modern wiring and keep the current knob and tube overhead lighting wiring in service. However, I still recommend eventually updating and replacing this old wiring due to issues that I have already discussed.


As to the K & T splice...the following illustration is the proper splicing method for Knob & Tube wiring....Note that a junction box must be utilized for any splice that is made from original installation.


"Click to Enlarge"
Attachment 8871

[rcooke]

Originally Posted by apfaff

I know I will get some flack for this but I always recommend a full evaluation and replacement of any K&T.

Every remodel I have done with K&T present revealed more scary crap than you could imagine hidden within the walls. Chances are it has been added to and modified so much it needs replacement. I have tried to trace it on some jobs and isolate the problem, but I found it was strung in the most unpredictable ways. It shares a neutral for several circuits and it can be hard to distinguish.

Don’t bother diagnosing...the home has knob and tube wiring in use… replace it.

I do not think any one who has electrical knowledge would fault you for recomending replacement.

Roy Cooke

[brian winkle]

"This is a particularly bad idea if you are plugging in a computer because computers dissipate harmful static electricity through the ground wire"

This is interesting, as my knowledge in electronics is minimal. I did not know computers used the grounding wire to dissipate static charges. I would like to relay this fact to potential customers looking to upgrade their wiring. Do you have a source for this information for verification?
Thanks.

[David P. Valley]

Originally Posted by brian winkle

Do you have a source for this information for verification?
Thanks.

This is one of many resources that are readily available through the internet...

Attachment 8872

[Greg Fretwell]

There is also a line filter in computers that can raise the voltage on the case to around 60 volts (at a very low current potential) if it is not grounded. This is designed to keep computer noise out of the electrical system, not to protect the computer.

[brian winkle]

Thanks for the info, like I said my electronics knowledge is weak. Been in the trade almost 20 years and I learn something every day.

[rcooke]

Originally Posted by Greg Fretwell

There is also a line filter in computers that can raise the voltage on the case to around 60 volts (at a very low current potential) if it is not grounded. This is designed to keep computer noise out of the electrical system, not to protect the computer.

Interesting now what should I do when I use my computer in the car of a inverter 12 v DC to 120 v AC with this strange voltage .

Roy Cooke

[Ernest E. Garcia, Jr.]

Thanks guys, I explained to my client the benefits of having a Licensed elctrical contractor go in to the 104 year old home and evaluate not only the knob and tube wiring but also the upgrades , I recommended in order for him to make the most informed decision he could make it would be benificial to have an electrical specialist assess the systems.

It sounds like a cop out but I am no electrician and I feel i did a good job inspecting the upgrades (New service equipment) etc.

[Greg Fretwell]

I have PCs running in 2 vehicles on inverters (MP3 players). As long as you couple to the in dash amp inductively (tape adapter) they work fine but if you try to plug directly into the amp with the 1/8" stereo jack you will get an ear shattering hum unless you ground the PC to the car frame.
If there is no other connection to the car it doesn't really matter what the case is, compared to the neutral from the inverter. In the home the neutral is grounded so you do have a reference for the 60 volts on the case.

In my truck I just went with a separate PC style sound system since the factory in dash system is crap.

[David P. Valley]

Originally Posted by rcooke

Interesting now what should I do when I use my computer in the car of a inverter 12 v DC to 120 v AC with this strange voltage .

Roy Cooke

Roy,

Interesting info. here.