Kitchen electrical question?

[sfogarty (Sean Fogarty)]

WHy is it that the kitchen outlets must be gfci protected, but the disposal under the draining sink never is?

[Jim_Port]

The NEC requires receptacles that serve the countertop to have GFI protection.

The receptacle for the DW and/or GD does not serve the countertop, therefore no need for GFI.

What do you think would be gained by having GFI on a receptacle under the counter?

[belliott (Bob Elliott, 450.0002662)]

I tend to agree with Sean on this.
If you are unplugging the disposal it is because you may be working on it and water tends to be associated with sink disposal does it not?
The odds are there is an issue that involves your hands and possibly the floor being wet.
The work area when facing upside down with back to the cabinet base is certainly much smaller than what is required for a panel.
Stating that it is an area that is not supposed to be wet is like saying traffic lights are no longer needed if we follow rules of the road.

[Jim_Port]

If this area is so wet why would it not be made out of non-absorbent plastic and have a drip edge to contain spills or a built-in drain? Are you really seeing sink bases that need to be replaced on a frequent basis due to delamination from water damage?

I would certainly get tired of using the sink and getting wet feet, not to mention the mess all over the floor.

If I were working on the GD I would either unplug it, tape the switch off or turn the breaker off.

[sfogarty (Sean Fogarty)]

Its not just the fact of the plugs in general.

There is water running through an appliance that has a live electrical wire inside.

[jwicklander (Jeffrey Wicklander)]

@sfogarty

Its not just the fact of the plugs in general.

There is water running through an appliance that has a live electrical wire inside.

Then according to this, a dishwasher should be GFCI protected as well as a fridge.

Jeff

[Jim_Port]

Using that logic, there should be GFI protection for the water heater and washer too.

[sstanczyk (Stephen Stanczyk, WA License #221)]

You can’t knock the garbage disposal into the sink. You can’t knock the dishwasher into the sink.

You can however, knock the coffee pot, coffee grinder, mixer, radio or any other counter-top appliance into a sink full of water. Thus the need. Just because the appliance has water as one of its functions does not mean it needs to be gfci protected.

[gfarnsworth (Gary Farnsworth, CMI)]

GFCI in the garage; exterior, sump pump, baths, kitchen, heck just replace the main breaker with a GFCI main???

[jfunderburk (Joe Funderburk, CMI)]

@sfogarty

There is water running through an appliance that has a live electrical wire inside.

Sort of like a sump pump, dishwasher, refrigerator or a washing machine? And those devices do not require a GFCI (that I’m aware of). The equipment itself is grounded to provide a path for stray current.

GFCIs are for personnel protection where the person may reasonably be expected to become the path to ground.

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/99a.jpg

[sfogarty (Sean Fogarty)]

Hey, I just asked a simple question…Spa tubs are required. I just wondered why disposals, and all other appliances that have water traveling through them, are also not required…

[pcooley (Paul Cooley)]

no but i had one where the seal failed and water was running through the motor luckily no one turned it on, might have energized the sink and who ever was touching it

[wwilson3 (Wayne Wilson, TN 439)]

You got to admit it is a good question.

[rmeier2 (Robert Meier)]

If anyone is interested here’s some background info from a NEC CMP regarding a proposal to change the 2008 code regarding GFCI protection for any receptacle within 6’ of a sink. Although it may not directly address the question is does provide some insight.

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2-60 Log #1893 NEC-P02 Final Action: Reject
(210.8(A)(6))

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Submitter: Norman Ellis, Stellar Inspections, Inc.
Recommendation: Revise as follows:
(6) Kitchens - Where the receptacles are installed to serve the counter top
surfaces or installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside edge of the sink.
Exception No. 1 to (6): Receptacles that are not readily accessible.
Exception No. 2 to (6): A single or a duplex receptacle for two appliances
located…”.
Substantiation: Homes with kitchens where a knee wall or adjacent wall
often have duplex receptacles where crockpots, decorations, phone charger,
etc., rendering a safety hazard. Please provide provision for safety as this is
often overlooked or argued over during construction inspection.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: If the receptacle is being used to supply the countertop, it
must be provided with GFCI protection regardless of its location. The submitter
has not presented any evidence that receptacles that do not serve the countertop
are creating a specific hazard. In addition, the submitter has not provided any
substantiation to add the exceptions to the kitchen requirements.
Number Eligible to Vote: 12
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 11 Negative: 1
Explanation of Negative:
KING, D.: This proposal should have been accepted in part. I agree with the
panel that the submitter has not provided any substantiation to add exceptions
to the required GFCI protection for receptacles serving countertops in
residential kitchens, but disagree with the panel’s position on GFCI protection
of receptacles within 6 feet of a kitchen sink. See my explanation of negative
for proposal 2-42.
Comment on Affirmative:
BROWN, L.: The 1990 NFPA 70 (NEC) (210-8(a)(5) (dwelling units) only
required: “receptacles installed within 6 feet of a kitchen sink” to have GFCI
protection.
This changed in the 1993 NEC (210-8(a)(5) (dwelling units) as the provision
was changed to:
“receptacles to serve counter top surfaces, installed with 6 feet of a wet bar
sink or kitchen sink.”
In the 1996 NEC (210-8(a)(6) (dwelling units - kitchens) it was changed to
apply only: “Where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop
surfaces.” Any reference to the kitchen sink was removed from this provision.
Though, provision (210-8(a)(7) (dwelling units - wet bar sinks) for GFCI
protect for: “receptacles where installed to serve counter top surfaces and are
located within 6 feet of the outside of the wet bar sink” was separated out into
a new provision.
No change was made in the 1999 (210-8(a)(7) or 2002 (210.8(A)(7) editions of
the NEC related to the GFCI locations for kitchens or wet bar sinks.
The 2005 NEC expanded Section (210-8(A)(7) to include “laundry, utility,
and wet bar sinks”, and the
GFCI locations changed to: “where the receptacles are installed within 6 feet of
the outside of the sink.” The relationship to serving a counter top was removed.
The provisions for kitchen GFCI’s (210-8(A)(6) did not change. So the question is raised - does a receptacle on a wall in a kitchen, not
serving the counter top surface, but within 6 feet of the sink, required to have
GFCI protection? It would appear the NEC would not require GFCI protection
for the wall outlet within 6 feet of a kitchen sink. Though, it would for any
other type of sink. In addition, please refer to the Panel Statement on Proposal
2-64.

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[jgromkoski (John Gromkoski, License No. 16000020183)]

@pcooley

no but i had one where the seal failed and water was running through the motor luckily no one turned it on, might have energized the sink and who ever was touching it

Scary. But then again, you could get rid of your toaster.:shock:

[belliott (Bob Elliott, 450.0002662)]

Blah,blah,blah,code is not a discussion since it changes all the time with the weather and we are not code inspectors.
Sean raises a good point.
Why are spa tubs required to have GFCI?
Nobody answered that question.

[wwilson3 (Wayne Wilson, TN 439)]

Well i guess it is one of those questions that can not be clearly answered. a great question though.
One could point it out as a concern

I wonder if anyone has contacted a manufacture and asked?

[sfogarty (Sean Fogarty)]

@belliott

Blah,blah,blah,code is not a discussion since it changes all the time with the weather and we are not code inspectors.
Sean raises a good point.
Why are spa tubs required to have GFCI?
Nobody answered that question.

Thas easy Bob. If the spa tub leaks into the electrical while your in it, your screwed…:ack!:

I see them all the time just lying on the floor under the tub. No cover plate and no securement. At least they could secure it above the floor on a stud.

I personally think it should not be allowed in the vacinity of the tub period. It should be installed downstream or in the panel. Even if the outlet trips. The wire is still live.

[dmacy (David C. Macy, CMI)]

GFCI’s seem to get me in trouble.

Old refrigerators, nuscience tripping or being downstream of another and people calling becuase there beer is warm.

Sumps being required for GFCI protection, so if the GFCI trips the pump does not operate.

People hardly ever test, I go to test, fails to respond and I am the one that broke the device.

Finding the downstream GFCI in homes is fun, double protecting GFCI and the downstream one does not reset until the other one is.

One time I had a hell of time finding the downstream GFCI, I heard it trip and it was behind cabinets and I had to take out utensils and shelves to find.

Having the below sink outlet GFCI protected would not be a bad idea. Your right, usually wet, damp around there.

Good thread Sean!!

[belliott (Bob Elliott, 450.0002662)]

@sfogarty

Thas easy Bob. If the spa tub leaks into the electrical while your in it, your screwed…:ack!:

I see them all the time just lying on the floor under the tub. No cover plate and no securement. At least they could secure it above the floor on a stud.

I personally think it should not be allowed in the vacinity of the tub period. It should be installed downstream or in the panel. Even if the outlet trips. The wire is still live.

Unless it is in the panel. hmmm.