Lesson 2 - Explaining the clients options

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Hey Guys,

Another Virtual Inspection Question.........

You are doing a home inspection on a house that has an unfinished basement....and the client has an old (2) two conductor NM without a EGC running to receptacles in the house. They would like 3 prong receptacles and the existing branch circuits as explained are older (2) wire type NM cable....and a new grounded properly service was installed (2) years ago.

You inform the client the receptacles are " Ungrounded " and she seems concerned........so here is your question....

1.) Hou do you explain to her the options she has and what are they?

NOTICE: Electricians please hold off to allow the HI's to answer until I say it is clear for the Electricians to resond and assist them. Another Notice....Dave Macy...you can't answer this question.......!

Hint's - Give their options and attempt to give them some technical options on what they may be able to do.

Disclaimer - I am NOT trying to make you guys Electricians....But would like to assist in letting you peer into the world of what the electrician may offer and suggest and a well educated HI may be able to assist the client on knowing their options before they PANIC at your results....Tactfulness also builds future clients.

[Doug Edwards]

An unfinished basement requires GFCI protection. Since the service was upgraded the basement should have been as well as the requirement becomes retroactive (210-7d2)

1. Use GFCI receptacles to replace existing 2 prong "ungrounded" receptacles.
2. Have a licensed electrical contractor add the EGC and use the appropriate grounded receptacles (with labels) with GFCI protection (receptacle or breaker)

[Paul W. Abernathy]

ignore the basement part Doug......it was to assist in a possible solution....for the answers...

[Keith Swift, PhD.]

As an inspector, my weakness has always been electricity. However, I describe what I see (obsolete two-prong outlets, and wiring with no potential for ground), which I view as a safety-hazard, acknowledge that the NEC is not retoactive, and recommend an evaluation by a licensed electrician within the contingency period, and add that the cost of the upgrade could effect my client's evaluation of the property.

[Charley L. Bottger]

Paul I am tickled to death you posted this question as I have had to deal with it many many times.

I can trouble shoot a complicated A/C system electrically.
I can wire my own home.
Can I explain the two wire system to a client. Absolutely not I just get this Deer in the head light look and know I am not pentrating the brain waves. My fault: Will be very interested in the final answer

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Keith...very excellent.......the concept of this virtual lesson is to possible EXPAND the knowledge of what you can comment to the client on and increase the knowledge of electrical conditions.....lets see how others post as well and we will start explaining the idea and concepts....

I have to confess...this virtual lesson is to possibly see the extent of the HI's knowledge on the Electrical Options....kinda an advanced lesson on the insite to the actual electrical options that face the consumer....

But...again your statement is 100% correct in the verbage and no wonder your software is the industry standard....most excellent.. that the inspector should write in the report....my attempt here is to dive into the ACTUAL electrical options to help educate.......

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Also.....it is extensive informative topics like this...dealing with understanding the options the client ACTUALLY has is what I as a highly informed HI would want.....knowledge is as important ...you can explain a condition but need to know options for that condition.....

So lets dig deeper........what are the electrical options here !

[Keith Swift, PhD.]

Paul,
As posted to you privately, I absolutely agree with what you're attempting to accomplish. The more we know the better we can serve ourselves and others. You have certainly earned my respect as an electrical authority and, more importantly, as a human being. Thank you.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Thank You Keith.....truly means alot to me......!

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Originally Posted by cbottger

Paul I am tickled to death you posted this question as I have had to deal with it many many times.

I can trouble shoot a complicated A/C system electrically.
I can wire my own home.
Can I explain the two wire system to a client. Absolutely not I just get this Deer in the head light look and know I am not pentrating the brain waves. My fault: Will be very interested in the final answer

Will do my friend.......OK GUYS......lets have some thoughts....however I know its the weekend...so lets give this one time for other HI's to give it a shot......before I turn it LOOSE and let the anxiously awaiting electricians ( myself included ) go at it.....

Come on HI's..........lets learn together...

[bchew]

Well the first thing that I would do is talk to the client to find out why they want the three prong receptacles. If the reason is because they have equipment that they want to use in that location that has three prong plugs on it (e.g., refrigerator or freezer, appliances, computer or electronic equipment, certain kinds of power tools, etc) then I would explain that the equipment comes from the factory with a three prong plug on it for a reason. That third prong is needed to protect either the equipment or people or both in the event something goes wrong.

Next I would say that one option would be that they could replace the old two prong receptacles with three prong GFCI receptacles that are labeled with "No Ground". This does not prevent someone from plugging into it a three prong plug. This option will protect people but will not protect the equipment from damage. To protect the equipment it still needs to be connected to a good ground.

Another option is to provide a ground at each outlet and properly install a three prong receptacle with ground. This will protect the equipment but will not adequately protect people coming in contact with that equipment in this location (unfinished basement). In order to adequately protect the people the circuit needs to be protected by a GFCI. Since we are talking about an unfinished basement I would also point out that the wiring is readily accessible which will make the job of the electrician a lot easier.

At this point I would hand it off to the electrician to discuss specific methods and costs.

So how did I do?

Brandon

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Ahhh.....excellent...lets get more....( guys to benefit from this...always go back and read the my first post on it...to better understand....)

Great points brandon.....lets keep it going...explain how this can be achived in your last paragraph......also the basement reference is ONLY to facilitate the answers to your last paragraph......lets dig deeper.....

[bchew]

Personally, I would recommend installing a GFCI breaker in the panel and running new branch circuit wiring w/ground in the basement. The two wire circuits are old and unlike wine or good cheese, electrical components do not get better with age. I know this option is ok.

I'd be reaching and would need to do more research before saying this to the client, but I think that you could also add a grounding conductor to the existing wiring and run it back to the panel, or look for places in the basement (like a water pipe?) where a ground could be connected to the receptacle. If I'm off base, I'm ready to be educated.

P.S. someone give me one green box to cancel the one anonymous red one I got (without comment) on a post in another thread where I thanked (sincerely) Nick for answering a question I had, but I guess they didn't like me also saying that I did not agree with him. lol

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Originally Posted by bchew

I'd be reaching and would need to do more research before saying this to the client,

Hopefully with all the educators here.....we will get to that point shortly...

Anymore comments......lets hear em....

[bchew]

Ahhh... I see now that we are not talking about putting three prong receptacles only in the basement, but anywhere in the house?

Well the good news is that the service is grounded and the basement is unfinished. This will help the electrican do the wiring. The goal is still to provide a ground and bring it back to the panel. The option to put a GFCI receptacle in the two-wire box and label it "No Ground" is still there too but still has that problem of not protecting the equipment that needs the ground.

P.S. thanks. I'll let someone else have a go now.