Light Switch Near Shower

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Originally Posted by gromicko

Paul writes: But you were touching a plastic switch cover with a dry hand while sitting on porcelain toilet.

Would you be willing to get soak and wet, stand barefoot in a bathtub full of water, and touch a decorative metal or chrome switch plate cover with a wet hand, with no hesitation? If so, what method would have used to confirm the plate cover isn't energized? Or do you do it without hesitation based solely on the unlikeliness that the switch plate cover is energized?

I would if the metal cover plate was in compliance with 404.9(B). It is very rare that you will run into a metal switch coverplate in this situation. If you do as an HI you can test it with a ticker if you wish. Basically, you are inspecting for events of possibility versus a condition that is present.

I am done with this topic.....mixing luminaries with non-metallic snap switches and non-metallic cover plates are insane but HI's are free to call them out....just be ready for any backlash they may take.

[Stephen W. Stanczyk]

Ooh Paul.

Better look out. THE COLORS ARE COMING...

THE COLORS ARE COMING

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Originally Posted by gromicko

http://www.nachi.org/gallery/electri...sunken-tub.jpg Light fixtures are not permitted to hang within 3 foot of the perimeter of the tub (in part) for fear that the metal housing of the fixture might be energized and in part because of these: http://doitbest.com/Cord+sockets-Lev...sku-520243.dib. But how is an energized metal switch plate cover any different?

Firstly, If someone DID use a metal cover plate in a location that was obviously near the tub area I would say it is a matter of weeding out the gene pool. We can't save the world and you can't fix stupid.

Secondly, I would read 404.9

(B) Grounding.

Snap switches, including dimmer and
similar control switches, shall be connected to an equipment
grounding conductor and shall provide a means to
connect metal faceplates to the equipment grounding conductor,
whether or not a metal faceplate is installed. Snap
switches shall be considered to be part of an effective
ground-fault current path if either of the following conditions
is met:
(1) The switch is mounted with metal screws to a metal
box or metal cover that is connected to an equipment
grounding conductor or to a nonmetallic box with integral
means for connecting to an equipment grounding
conductor.
(2) An equipment grounding conductor or equipment
bonding jumper is connected to an equipment grounding
termination of the snap switch.

Exception to (B): Where no means exists within the snapswitch
enclosure for connecting to the equipment grounding
conductor or where the wiring method does not include
or provide an equipment grounding conductor, a snap
switch without a connection to an equipment grounding
conductor shall be permitted for replacement purposes
only. A snap switch wired under the provisions of this exception
and located within reach of earth, grade, conducting
floors, or other conducting surfaces shall be provided
with a faceplate of nonconducting, noncombustible material
or shall be protected by a ground-fault circuit
interrupter.

So with that said.......and what I suggested to you in Colorado is to recommend protection of the circuit on GFCI......rather than tell a person they have to change it, move it when clearly it is not a violation.....but again and I will said it LOUD so frank can hear it.....if you feel a GFCI is needed then suggest it by all means.......but make seller move it and possibly lose a sale because of it then i am sur we might see you in court.....THATS what a home seller will say in this kinda market.

[Marcel Gratton]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

Firstly, If someone DID use a metal cover plate in a location that was obviously near the tub area I would say it is a matter of weeding out the gene pool. We can't save the world and you can't fix stupid.

So Paul,

How far away would you say that metal cover plate should be from the tub / shower area?

Would you not agree that it should be situated out of reach from anyone in the tub / shower for safety reasons ???

Cheers,

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Nope.....none of my posts maintain it should be outside of reach from anyone. No one will change my mind on it....suggest GFCI if you wish but no way in heck would I flag someone for a switch near the shower as long as it is not within it.

But please feel free to do what you wish.......that goes for anyone here. Just dont look for me to support the choice....lol As for how far away with a metal cover...i did not give a distance....chances nothing as long as it complies with 404.9.

Remember...Canada is Canada.....the NEC is used in more countries than just one unlike canada's code. I understand it is within canadian requirements. Does no make them right or wrong but it does say they made a choice which is not the same choice made in the USA or other countries that use the NEC. BTW- the NEC is a minimum safety standard so AGAIN for about the 20th time....if someone wishes to suggest GFCI I support that with no question because I agree on a potential issue that is in the interest of HI's safety concerns. However, I do not support telling a client they need to move it.........the risk does not outway the cost and compliance is compliance.

I suggest members go with their own feelings, far be it for me to sway anyone. I can paint alot of what ever situations that could kill people but reality is...this is not something ANYONE can produce a real death concern anywhere.

[Frank M. Carrio, CMI]

Originally Posted by mlarson

Does anyone think think "code inspectors" are smarter than "electrical instructors"

I don't.


FBI: Jersey City building inspector took bribes to look the other way

Electrocution Prompts Home Builder Lawsuit

Since I am both a Code Compliance Inspector and an Electrical Instructor I guess that I must be okay!

[Frank M. Carrio, CMI]

AskNACHI.org ForumQuestions posted to AskNACHI.org are displayed here for responses from InterNACHI members.

http://www.nachi.org/forum/f54/copper-bar-40777/#post529586

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Anyone out there know how to restore copper bar that has turned "black"...

Originally Posted by pabernathy

Copper oxidizes slowly in air, corroding to produce a brown or green patina. At higher temperatures the process is much faster and produces mainly black copper oxide. The oxide can be reduced by hydrogen gas, which is a moderately strong reducing agent, producing a shiny, clean copper surface.

Hey "cut and paste" champion! YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF!
If you were going to do a "cut and paste" you should at least be honest enough to give credit to the author and or website where you took the material from!

http://jchemed.chem.wisc.edu/JCESoft...OXCU/PAGE1.HTM
Oxidation and Reduction of Copper
A piece of copper metal is oxidized to black copper oxide by air when heated in a flame. The oxidized copper is reduced when placed in a hydrogen atmosphere. When removed from the hydrogen atmosphere, the metal is again oxidized. The equation for the reaction is included.

(30 )

Keywords
applications - practical/real-life, combination reaction, copper, descriptive chemistry, evidence of chemical reaction, hydrogen, oxygen, redox reaction, single exchange/replacement reaction

Multimedia
Play movie (QuickTime 3.0 Sorenson, duration 63 seconds, size 4.4 MB)
A piece of copper is supported over a burner and is heated. The copper begins to react more rapidly with oxygen from the air and a darker color can be seen on the surface of the copper. This is similar to the color that forms on copper cookware when it is used in a kitchen. A few seconds later the copper has become dark. It has reacted with oxygen in the air. The burner flame is turned out and an inverted funnel with hydrogen gas blowing out of it is placed over the copper. The hydrogen gas is a reducing agent. It reduces the copper oxide on the surface of the copper and causes pure copper to be formed again. The dark color disappears leaving a pure copper color. Oxidation and reduction of the copper can be repeated several times by removing and replacing the funnel until the metal cools and the reactions slow down.

The copper reacts with oxygen from the air.

Hydrogen gas ...

... reduces the copper oxide.

Additional still images for this movie

Discussion
Copied by Paul Abernathy and pasted on the NACHI bulletin board without giving credit to this website!
Copper oxidizes slowly in air, corroding to produce a brown or green patina. At higher temperatures the process is much faster and produces mainly black copper oxide. The oxide can be reduced by hydrogen gas, which is a moderately strong reducing agent, producing a shiny, clean copper surface. This provides a striking illustration of oxidation and reduction of a metal.
Equations for the reactions are
2 Cu(s ) + O2(g ) --> 2 CuO(s )
CuO(s ) + H2(g ) --> Cu(s ) + H2O(g )
Demonstration Notes, Warnings, Safety Information, etc.

Exam and Quiz Questions
1. When heated in air, copper changes color. Based on the color change, is the copper being oxidized or reduced?
2. In the presence of hydrogen gas, the copper turns color. Based on the color that the copper turns, is the hydrogen causing oxidation or reduction? Would the hydrogen be clasified as an oxidizing agent or a reducing agent?
3. What observable evidence indicates that a reaction is taking place when the copper is being heated? What are the reactants in this reaction?
4. Classify the reactions shown in the video as combination, decomposition, exchange, acid-base, combustion, or redox. (There is more than one reaction, and each reaction may fall within more than one of these categories.)

[Frank M. Carrio, CMI]

Originally Posted by fcarrio

More FATAL mistakes from "Instructors"

An experienced electrician in the U.S. mine was showing other workers how to use a cable fault tester. This device, also known as a "thumper," is capable of producing a high-energy pulse at voltages up to 10,000 V. During his demonstration, the man inadvertently touched a part of the test unit that was energized. Unfortunately, he was not wearing safety gloves suitable for high voltages.

• The man received a fatal electrical shock.

Another incident was reported in Alberta, where a young, healthy worker was seriously injured when his co-workers, in an act of horseplay, applied the leads of a megohmeter to his hands. Workers in the electrical industry sometimes use this method of "zapping" the hands of a worker - usually a first-year apprentice - as an initiation joke.

• This dangerous act is not worth the risk.

A megohmeter or "meggar" is an instrument used to measure the resistance of electrical insulation. It generates high voltages with a small current. During this incident, the electricity travelled from one hand of the worker to the other, passing through his heart.

• The worker was hospitalized and treated for symptoms similar to those of a heart attack victim.

He was discharged from the hospital, but continued to have cardiac problems and was later re-admitted. His doctor confirmed that the condition was the result of the small electric current that had travelled through his heart.

• Follow-up with a cardiologist confirmed that a small current of a high voltage can result in heart problems.

Under occupational health and safety law, employers have a legal responsibility to ensure the health and safety of all workers, and workers are equally accountable for their own safety, and for the safety of their co-workers.

• This means taking all necessary precautions against workplace hazards.

For anyone working with electrical devices, the US Department of Labour's Mine Safety and Health Administration recommends these best practices:

• No one should operate a high-voltage testing device except a qualified electrician, thoroughly trained in the use of that specific model of tester.
• The operator must follow the manufacturer's instructions and keep the owner's manual with the device at all times.
• When operating an electrical testing device such as a "thumper," always wear suitable high-voltage electrical gloves.
• Before turning on an electrical testing unit, connect the provided frame-grounding cord/connectors to a proper grounding medium.
• All workers should be informed that instruments that test and measure electricity are capable of storing and delivering a lethal electrical charge.
• Store such devices in a secured location, accessible only to qualified, trained electricians.

Originally Posted by pabernathy

You really MUST have a hard on for me Frank........
No.... not at all! If you will go back and read this entire thread you will see that I have tried not to respond to you at all. As a matter of fact I have a habit of ignoring the initial shots taken at me. However even I get tired of having someone insult me over and over and over again without responding!
So why should you be surprised when you fire at me and I returned fire?

I sat on the toilet, turned on the sink and put my hand in the water while I turned on the light....get real...it was not on video and was a joke
You have lost what little credibility you had a long long time ago!

Since I have seen you post some really ridiculous statements on this message board {like your statement 24 hours earlier about taking a shower and flipping on a light switch 100 times} I believe that you would be dumb enough to have your hand and a sink full of water while having your "right hand" flipping a light switch off and on.

( mainly about your statements to be honest with you )....while taking a break from shooting...get over yourself.

No Paul it is you the self proclaimed "electrical guru/codeoligstwho needs to get over himself

The bottom line ..... is to keep me out of your posts and I will keep you out of mine!

[Frank M. Carrio, CMI]

Hey Boys & Girls!
Here is some interesting information for ya!
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/construction/electrical_incidents/eleccurrent.html

How Electrical Current Affects the Human Body

Three primary factors affect the severity of the shock a person receives when he or she is a part of an electrical circuit:

Amount of current flowing through the body (measured in amperes).
Path of the current through the body.
Length of time the body is in the circuit.

Other factors that may affect the severity of the shock are:

• The voltage of the current.
• The presence of moisture in the environment.
• The phase of the heart cycle when the shock occurs.
• The general health of the person prior to the shock.

Effects can range from a barely perceptible tingle to severe burns and immediate cardiac arrest.

Although it is not known the exact injuries that result from any given amperage, the following table demonstrates this general relationship for a 60-cycle, hand-to-foot shock of one second's duration:

Current level (in milliamperes)

Probable effect on human body

1 mA
Perception level. Slight tingling sensation. Still dangerous under certain conditions.

5 mA

Slight shock felt; not painful but disturbing. Average individual can let go. However, strong involuntary reactions to shocks in this range may lead to injuries.

6-30 mA

Painful shock, muscular control is lost. This is called the freezing current or "let-go" range.

50-150 mA

Extreme pain, respiratory arrest, severe muscular contractions. Individual cannot let go. Death is possible.

1000-4300 mA
Ventricular fibrillation (the rhythmic pumping action of the heart ceases.) Muscular contraction and nerve damage occur. Death is most likely.

10,000 mA
Cardiac arrest, severe burns and probable death.

• Wet conditions are common during low-voltage electrocutions.

Under dry conditions, human skin is very resistant.

{Maybe that is why Paul keep a dry hand on a dry switch while he tried to fool Nick}

Wet skin dramatically drops the body's resistance.
{Duh..... "The Darwin Award"..... Like being soaking wet and standing in a shower flipping an electrical switch off & on}

Dry Conditions: Current = Volts/Ohms = 120/100,000 = 1mA a barely perceptible level of current

• Wet conditions: Current = Volts/Ohms = 120/1,000 = 120m A sufficient current to cause ventricular fibrillation

If the extensor muscles are excited by the shock, the person may be thrown away from the circuit.


Often, this can result in a fall from elevation that kills a victim even when electrocution does not.

When muscular contraction caused by stimulation does not allow the victim to free himself from the circuit, even relatively low voltages can be extremely dangerous, because the degree of injury increases with the length of time the body is in the circuit.

• LOW VOLTAGE DOES NOT IMPLY LOW HAZARD!

100mA for 3 seconds = 900mA for .03 seconds in causing fibrillation

Note that a difference of less than 100 milliamperes exists between a current that is barely perceptible and one that can kill.

High voltage electrical energy greatly reduces the body's resistance by quickly breaking down human skin. Once the skin is punctured, the lowered resistance results in massive current flow.

Ohm's law is used to demonstrate the action.

At 1,000 volts, Current = Volts/Ohms = 1,000/500 = 2 Amps which can cause cardiac arrest and serious damage to internal organs

So..... Any so called "Electrical Guru / Codeoligist who tells you to stand in a shower and "flip a light switch off and on or...... sit on a toilet with one hand in a sink filled with water like he did" is IRRESPONSIBLE and or NUTS!

Like I said.... There are Instructors and then there is... Paul!

PS:

Paul.... Earlier this year you said that you were quitting and becoming a " Dog Groomer"!

Now would be a good time!

[Frank M. Carrio, CMI]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

Firstly, If someone DID use a metal cover plate in a location that was obviously near the tub area I would say it is a matter of weeding out the gene pool. We can't save the world and you can't fix stupid.

This sounds like one of your students!

20th March 2009, 04:12 PM
Adam
Shaolin Wahnam Student
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Beijing, China
Posts: 269

Getting Electrocuted
Dear All,

I would like to relate a very interesting experience.

Today when I was trying to find the source for an electrical problem I was electrocuted.

I could feel the electricity hit my internal organs, and its pathway. Wow!

As a carpenters apprentice I have worked with electricity before, but have never been 'hit'. Needless to say that, It Freaked me out!!! Not to mention that here in China the voltage is 240volts, quite a bit more than in the US.

Anyways, after being zapped and letting loose a loud scream. I heard my training calling me.
{Pauls Training! } After relaxing, smiling from the heart and doing lifting the sky, I went into Chi flow and, it led me directly into 'Flicking Water From Fingers'.

And that's when it happened, I felt as I had been electrocuted again, but this time in reverse. All of the original electric shock that my body had recieved, was literally shot out from my hand, with all the intensity of the original receiving of the electrical shock.

Interesting experience, it freaked my roommate out!

Anyways, dont try this at home .(thats what my face looked like)

Still Living,

Adam

[Michael Larson]

Frank,

Are you OK?

[Larry D. Kage]

Originally Posted by mlarson

Frank,

Are you OK?

Isn't that normal for Frank?

[Jim Port]

I wonder how a person that was electrocuted wrote that story. Electrocution is death from an electric shock. So how could a dead person write that? Did they go through a medium?

[Joe Farsetta]

This thread has turned to bull$h*t.

The ghost of JT haunts it.

Boys and girls, please learn to play in the sandbox.

I happen to agree with Paul. There is nothing to prohibit it, but personally I would recommend GFCI protection for this switch. There's a clear distinction from flagging something as a true defect, and making a recommended improvement.

All defects are repairable. The art comes from the Client's impression of how manageable the problem is. The configuration in question, from whatever side of the argument you are on, is simple; install a GFCO and move on.

Some inspectors talk for the sake of talking.

And, Mike L was correct with regard to luminaires in the vicinty of a tub. As I recall, this was an old debate on this board, where there was an associated photo showing a hot tub with metal wall fixtures above the ledge. Tedesco and others debated it for days. In the end, the code interpretation was limited to protection from filaments.

Problem with code references is that our opinions really do not count. The ONLY opinion that counts is that of the AHJ.

Actually, Jim Bushart is the AHJ for his city. Why not ask Jim for his spin?

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Originally Posted by fcarrio

AskNACHI.org ForumQuestions posted to AskNACHI.org are displayed here for responses from InterNACHI members.

http://www.nachi.org/forum/f54/copper-bar-40777/#post529586






Hey "cut and paste" champion! YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF!
If you were going to do a "cut and paste" you should at least be honest enough to give credit to the author and or website where you took the material from!

http://jchemed.chem.wisc.edu/JCESoft...OXCU/PAGE1.HTM
Oxidation and Reduction of Copper
A piece of copper metal is oxidized to black copper oxide by air when heated in a flame. The oxidized copper is reduced when placed in a hydrogen atmosphere. When removed from the hydrogen atmosphere, the metal is again oxidized. The equation for the reaction is included.

(30 )

Keywords
applications - practical/real-life, combination reaction, copper, descriptive chemistry, evidence of chemical reaction, hydrogen, oxygen, redox reaction, single exchange/replacement reaction

Multimedia
Play movie (QuickTime 3.0 Sorenson, duration 63 seconds, size 4.4 MB)
A piece of copper is supported over a burner and is heated. The copper begins to react more rapidly with oxygen from the air and a darker color can be seen on the surface of the copper. This is similar to the color that forms on copper cookware when it is used in a kitchen. A few seconds later the copper has become dark. It has reacted with oxygen in the air. The burner flame is turned out and an inverted funnel with hydrogen gas blowing out of it is placed over the copper. The hydrogen gas is a reducing agent. It reduces the copper oxide on the surface of the copper and causes pure copper to be formed again. The dark color disappears leaving a pure copper color. Oxidation and reduction of the copper can be repeated several times by removing and replacing the funnel until the metal cools and the reactions slow down.

The copper reacts with oxygen from the air.

Hydrogen gas ...

... reduces the copper oxide.

Additional still images for this movie

Discussion
Copied by Paul Abernathy and pasted on the NACHI bulletin board without giving credit to this website!
Copper oxidizes slowly in air, corroding to produce a brown or green patina. At higher temperatures the process is much faster and produces mainly black copper oxide. The oxide can be reduced by hydrogen gas, which is a moderately strong reducing agent, producing a shiny, clean copper surface. This provides a striking illustration of oxidation and reduction of a metal.
Equations for the reactions are
2 Cu(s ) + O2(g ) --> 2 CuO(s )
CuO(s ) + H2(g ) --> Cu(s ) + H2O(g )
Demonstration Notes, Warnings, Safety Information, etc.

Exam and Quiz Questions
1. When heated in air, copper changes color. Based on the color change, is the copper being oxidized or reduced?
2. In the presence of hydrogen gas, the copper turns color. Based on the color that the copper turns, is the hydrogen causing oxidation or reduction? Would the hydrogen be clasified as an oxidizing agent or a reducing agent?
3. What observable evidence indicates that a reaction is taking place when the copper is being heated? What are the reactants in this reaction?
4. Classify the reactions shown in the video as combination, decomposition, exchange, acid-base, combustion, or redox. (There is more than one reaction, and each reaction may fall within more than one of these categories.)

Are you really that ignorant Frank......the post was on the ASK NACHI area and it was directly..from the online text as it 99.9 of the NEC comments that are posted...no need to add anything to it.......still got that hard on for me I see....let it go old man........let it go.