Light Switch Near Shower

[Paul W. Abernathy]

I already know that 100's if not 1,000's of electricians are laughing at him anyway. So it is all good....we have come to expect as much from the source...Carrio is someone I have no respect for and it is known.....so he does not bother me.

[Joe Farsetta]

All,

Plagarism means that one has impuned the reputation of the author. No reference is needed, unless the quote is used for te purpose of making money. At that point, copyright infringement comes into play. I know these things as I am a published author. Educational settings, such as colleges, have taken the term to new heights in recent years. Still doesnt change the meaning of the word, however.

Nick,

If we lived in England, your reference would be relevent to the discussion. Since we dont, it isnt

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Originally Posted by jfarsetta

All,

Plagarism means that one has impuned the reputation of the author. No reference is needed, unless the quote is used for te purpose of making money. At that point, copyright infringement comes into play. I know these things as I am a published author. Educational settings, such as colleges, have taken the term to new heights in recent years. Still doesnt change the meaning of the word, however.

Nick,

If we lived in England, your reference would be relevent to the discussion. Since we dont, it isnt

yeah..and we know my thousands of FREE helpful posts have made me millions...much less posting a small blurb on a non-member area to help someone.....Seems when people try to help people they get harrassed for helping...no wonder more people refuse to help.

[jmagee]

As per NEC 2008:
404.4 Damp or Wet Locations. A surface-mounted switch
or circuit breaker in a damp or wet location shall be enclosed
in a weatherproof enclosure or cabinet that shall
comply with 312.2. A flush-mounted switch or circuit
breaker in a damp or wet location shall be equipped with a
weatherproof cover. Switches shall not be installed within
wet locations in tub or shower spaces unless installed as
part of a listed tub or shower assembly.
Does the shower have a door on it, a curtin, or is the shower open. As an Commercial and Residential electrician these switches would not be located where they are in this picture. They should be mounted by the entry door to the shower room. The edge of the tile that is cloest to the switches begins the 3' rule so yes they are within the 3' area, but the 3' rule applies to lighting. (410.4 (D)) No matter how that passed inspection if it was even checked during the inspection there is a high chance of water getting into the switches, not to mention steam and water vapor.

just starting the inspection side of things here, but electric I know pretty good. Hope this helps out somewhat.

Jay Magee

[Paul W. Abernathy]

James,

As long as you understand that only applys to the "luminare" and not the switch....you are ok. Make sure you read all the replies...

[William M. Bentley]

I cannot believe some of these answers, this switch is definitely not OK by any means. Regardless of the language, as a home inspector you should always write up switches that are within reach of a tub or shower. One gentleman had it correct, a 3' foot clearance is the best rule of thumb but as a home inspector you can use your judgement to protect your client. These switches right next to the shower are a huge safety issue and with no shoes on, standing in water, on top of tile/mortar/concrete and then the soil underneath you will be fully grounded to earth. Given our track record for laziness if we forget to turn on the exhaust fan and our in the middle of our shower most of us will take a chance and flip the switch while in the shower, that's why switches shall not be installed within reach of a shower or tub installation. Remember if it looks dangerous right it up for your client, code compliant or not. If someone ask you, "why you wrote it up, it's not a code violation?", just tell them you felt a need to notify your client that in your opinion this may not be safe and leave it at that.

[Joseph M. Whitt]

Mr. Bentley

I have been involved with electrical installations for over 44 years. I have almost 12 years of electrical classroom instruction experience. I have been involved with the International Association of Electrical Inspectors for over 11 years.
Could you please explain to me what is so dangerous about these types of switch installations? I seem to have missed the safety issues that you seem to feel that exist.

[Robert Meier]

Originally Posted by wbentley

I cannot believe some of these answers, this switch is definitely not OK by any means. Regardless of the language, as a home inspector you should always write up switches that are within reach of a tub or shower. One gentleman had it correct, a 3' foot clearance is the best rule of thumb but as a home inspector you can use your judgement to protect your client. These switches right next to the shower are a huge safety issue and with no shoes on, standing in water, on top of tile/mortar/concrete and then the soil underneath you will be fully grounded to earth. Given our track record for laziness if we forget to turn on the exhaust fan and our in the middle of our shower most of us will take a chance and flip the switch while in the shower, that's why switches shall not be installed within reach of a shower or tub installation. Remember if it looks dangerous right it up for your client, code compliant or not. If someone ask you, "why you wrote it up, it's not a code violation?", just tell them you felt a need to notify your client that in your opinion this may not be safe and leave it at that.

Obviously the NEC disagrees with your opinion since there is no requirement to have a switch out of reach from a tub or shower. In fact there have attempts to add your opinion to the NEC but those have been summarily rejected by the CMP. Below is one such example. Can you provide some substantiation as to noted cases where someone has been injured or worse by a switch within reach of a shower or tub?

9-87 Log #82 NEC-P09 Final Action: Reject
(404.4)
__________________________________________________ ______________
Submitter: Joe Riley, City of Arlington
Recommendation: Revise as follows:
Switches shall not be installed within wet locations in a tub or shower space
or directly over a bathtub or shower stall measuring 900 m (3 ft) horizontally
and vertically to the ceiling from the top of the bathtub rim or shower stall
threshold unless installed as part of a listed tub or shower assembly.
Substantiation: Tub and shower spaces for devices is a little vague and up to
interpretation. Consistency of electrical device and equipment locations with
other parts of the code such as 410.4(D) only makes sense in ensuring electrical
safety.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: The proposed requirement is excessive. This section has
always restricted itself to applications where the switch might be actually
subject to a water stream. It never had to do with the issue of a reaching
exposure from the tub or shower area. This is intentionally different from
receptacles that extend a power circuit (through the attached cord) a significant
distance.
Number Eligible to Vote: 11
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 10
Ballot Not Returned: 1 de Vega, H.
__________________________________________________ ______________

[Jim Port]

Originally Posted by wbentley

I cannot believe some of these answers, this switch is definitely not OK by any means. Regardless of the language, as a home inspector you should always write up switches that are within reach of a tub or shower. One gentleman had it correct, a 3' foot clearance is the best rule of thumb but as a home inspector you can use your judgement to protect your client. These switches right next to the shower are a huge safety issue and with no shoes on, standing in water, on top of tile/mortar/concrete and then the soil underneath you will be fully grounded to earth. Given our track record for laziness if we forget to turn on the exhaust fan and our in the middle of our shower most of us will take a chance and flip the switch while in the shower, that's why switches shall not be installed within reach of a shower or tub installation. Remember if it looks dangerous right it up for your client, code compliant or not. If someone ask you, "why you wrote it up, it's not a code violation?", just tell them you felt a need to notify your client that in your opinion this may not be safe and leave it at that.

I too would like to see the reasons that you feel this way. I will flip a light switch all day while standing in the shower and not worry about it. Do you have the same fear of switches for the disposal within 3' of the kitchen sink?

As two others have pointed out the NEC does not share your fears.

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

Originally Posted by wbentley

as a home inspector you can use your judgement to protect your client.

Then where do you draw the line here William?

I say it's safe and I have the backing of a National Code. You say it's unsafe, what do you have to support your opinion?

As home inspectors we don't "cite" code, but we we use codes as the guidelines for our recommendations. When we (as home inspectors) start over thinking these issues and make unwarranted and baseless recommendations, it dilutes the integrity of the entire report, not to mention the profession.