Light Switch Near Shower

[Michael Larson]

Originally Posted by mgratton

Paul,

When bathrooms get painted, the switch cover usually gets removed and the non-conductive coating on those metal screws holding the cover sometimes peel's off exposing bare metal.

As for your comment about someone entering a shower to turn on the light ...how about someone turning on the ceiling heat lamp while leaving the jacuzzi or adjusting the heater's thermostat while in the tub...

In my opinion, the Canadian Electrical rule limiting the location of switch (s) in bathrooms is potentialy life saving.

Regards,

Please post the incidents where anyone was injured from having a switch within 3 ft of the shower or tub.

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

Originally Posted by mlarson

Please post the incidents where anyone was injured from having a switch within 3 ft of the shower or tub.

Boy, you're tough Mike

Take a look at this reference ;

404.8 Accessibility and Grouping.
(A) Location.
(2) [OSHPD 1, 2 & 4] Switches shall not be installed within shower rooms or stalls or be accessible from within these areas. Switches shall not be installed within 5 feet (1.52 m) of the perimeter of bathtubs.

[Michael Larson]

Originally Posted by jpope

Boy, you're tough Mike

Take a look at this reference ;

404.8 Accessibility and Grouping.
(A) Location.
(2) [OSHPD 1, 2 & 4] Switches shall not be installed within shower rooms or stalls or be accessible from within these areas. Switches shall not be installed within 5 feet (1.52 m) of the perimeter of bathtubs.

So you want to apply a requirement for hospitals to residential.

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

Just felt like adding to the confusion

[Michael Larson]

Originally Posted by jpope

Just felt like adding to the confusion

Trouble maker

Maybe HIs should be recommending hospital grade receptacles too.

[atarrant]

Guys, It just comes down to one thing, if you can reach the switch from the shower and there is a grounding problem you can die by electrocution. However, if the switch surface is plastic or non-conductive,which most are,and the box is grounded behind the cover, which most are, unless you have an uninformed (unqualified) electrician and a lousy electrical inspector or a very creative person, the chances are slim, very slim, that anything would happen to someone who reached the switch. What normally happens in these situations is that we would try to make the situation never happen,our code requires not being able to reach the switch from an area that is in contact with the water or shower area. As everyone knows,except insurance companies, there are people in the world who are not conventional and no matter what you do,seem to, unwittingly,do whatever is necessary to defeat any safety measures designed to protect them.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Originally Posted by jpope

Just felt like adding to the confusion

WHAT....Pope a trouble maker....say it is not so....say it just is not so...lol

[Paul W. Abernathy]

ok..this is just getting silly now. Lets not forget to report about squeeks on door hinges also while you are at it. Oh and that everytime you walk over to change the channel on your TV it could shock you...oh wait....can you even change a TV from the set itself anymore...all mine have remotes...lol

Lightning could strike me also as I walk down the street but I am not going to alter my life over it.....it happens. Again we can't fix stupid and if people do stupid things they are gonna get hurt...it is like weeding out the gene pool so to speak. A sad but true fact.....

[Frank M. Carrio, CMI]

It seems that we are not the only ones discussing this issue!
NOTE: The "Red Fonts" are mine!

http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/electrical-systems-home-inspection-commercial-inspection/6738-light-switch-proximity-bath-tub.html

04-07-2008, 07:00 AM

Richard Franklin
Member

Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 11
Re: Light switch proximity to bath tub
Attached is a drawing from Code Buddy. What is forgotten is the tub zone. The location of the switch or outlet within the tub zone has been an issue for many years. Mike Holt should be leading the charge to the NEC to change this situation. GFCI's fail. People build up a false feeling of security. If a switch or outlet is not allowed within five feet of a pool or spa, how is it that it is allowed around a tub? Are you not just as dead?

If someone is not citing code issues,

isn't this a cop out? It's time that all HI's studied the code and became experts. If you are not citing the code just what are you doing? Reporting the chipped paint? Broken window?

This is an issue that should be clearly addressed by the NEC. HI's should be leading the charge. What we continue to have is a work force that is trained in a 3rd world country making life and death decisions. In the cases of new construction it would just as easy to move the outlets or switches.

04-07-2008, 07:04 PM

Jerry Peck
Member

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Ormond Beach, Florida
Posts: 11,693
Re: Light switch proximity to bath tub
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Franklin
Attached is a drawing from Code Buddy. What is forgotten is the tub zone.
From the 2008 NEC.
- 410.10 Luminaries in Specific Locations.
- - (D) Bathtub and Shower Areas. No parts of cord-connected luminaries, chain-, cable-, or cord-suspended luminaries, lighting track, pendants, or ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans shall be located within a zone measured 900 mm (3 ft) horizontally and 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower stall threshold. This zone is all encompassing and includes the space directly over the tub or shower stall.
Luminaries located within the actual outside dimension of the bathtub or shower to a height of 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower threshold shall be marked for damp locations, or marked for wet locations where subject to shower spray.

You will notice that this section is under "Luminaries in Specific Locations", not switches or receptacles.
Quote:
The location of the switch or outlet within the tub zone has been an issue for many years.

For receptacle outlets, the reference is: (underlining is mine)
From the 2008 NEC.
- 406.8 Receptacles in Damp or Wet Locations.
- - (C) Bathtub and Shower Space. Receptacles shall not be installed within or directly over a bathtub or shower stall.

For switches, the reference isunderlining is mine)
- 404.4 Damp or Wet Locations.
- - A surface-mounted switch or circuit breaker in a damp or wet location shall be enclosed in a weatherproof enclosure or cabinet that shall comply with 312.2. A flush-mounted switch or circuit breaker in a damp or wet location shall be equipped with a weatherproof cover. Switches shall not be installed within wet locations in tub or shower spaces unless installed as part of a listed tub or shower assembly.
Quote:
If someone is not citing code issues, isn't this a cop out? It's time that all HI's studied the code and became experts.

Citing the correct reference is VERY IMPORTANT also.
Quote:
This is an issue that should be clearly addressed by the NEC. HI's should be leading the charge.

I agree with that statement.
__________________
Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
www.AskCodeMan.com

04-08-2008, 01:10 PM

Jerry Peck
Member

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Ormond Beach, Florida
Posts: 11,693
Re: Light switch proximity to bath tub
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Miller
ECJ:

So, what are you saying then, that a "zone" is a "stall" and that these two words are synonymous?

What I was saying was simply that the code did not stated what Richard F. said, the "zone" only applied to light fixtures: "You will notice that this section is under "Luminaires in Specific Locations", not switches or receptacles."

And that switches and receptacle outlets were addressed separately (and differently).

I would like "the zone" to be applicable to all such installations (lights, switches, receptacle outlets) for ease of understanding what is allowed / not allowed where.

When I was working with Mike Holt on his 2005 Changes to the NEC video in late 2004 we discussed this, and the wording is very poor, it actually allows things which we would think were not intended to be allowed.
Quote:
And are you advocating, even given that a "zone" is not a "stall" per se, the any switches or receptacles located outside the stall yet in the zone be equipped with raintight corers?

What I was advocating was that if one is to quote the code, and was to chide other HIs for not quoting the code, that such person should actually be quoting *the correct* code themselves.

Here is an example of very poor code language:
From the 2008 NEC.
- 406.8 Receptacles in Damp or Wet Locations.
- - (C) Bathtub and Shower Space. Receptacles shall not be installed within or directly over a bathtub or shower stall.

"shall not be installed within or directly over"

Come on now, "within"? Who is going to install a receptacle outlet "within" a tub? Crimney, it would be submerged whenever the tub was filled.

Or "or directly over", as in "in the ceiling", or as in "directly over in the walls? What if the walls are set back a few inches from the tub? Those receptacles are no longer "directly over" a bathtub.

A shower stall (or tub with a shower as the shower curtain/enclosure defines 'the shower stall area', that's a lot easier to define and defend.

But at a tub with no shower, is that now even a "wet area"?

All I can do is raise questions on what it says. Mike was going to submit a code change for that, but I don't know if he ever did, I was also going to submit a code change for that, but I never did - got busy with my business and forgot about it.
__________________
Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
www.AskCodeMan.com

[Frank M. Carrio, CMI]

Originally Posted by mgratton

Paul,

When bathrooms get painted, the switch cover usually gets removed and the non-conductive coating on those metal screws holding the cover sometimes peel's off exposing bare metal.

As for your comment about someone entering a shower to turn on the light ...how about someone turning on the ceiling heat lamp while leaving the jacuzzi or adjusting the heater's thermostat while in the tub...

In my opinion, the Canadian Electrical rule limiting the location of switch (s) in bathrooms is potentialy life saving.

Regards,

Marcel,
The 8-foot high and 36-inch from the outside edge of the bathtub rule is just good old common sense! This DOES NOT show ANY switches within that zone!

It was put there for a reason!

[Frank M. Carrio, CMI]

Originally Posted by vsantos

It's my understanding the NEC is not very clear on these applications. Would you comment on this and what verbiage would you use?

Originally Posted by jpope

Sure it is. There's nothing to comment about.

NEC 404.4 Switches shall not be installed within wet locations in tub or shower spaces unless installed as part of a listed tub or shower assembly.

These switches are clearly outside of the "shower space."

Jeff,
WITH ALL DUE RESPECT..... if you are going to quote code then.... you should quote ALL of it!

FROM THE NATIONAL ELECTRICAL CODE.

2008 National Electrical Code
ARTICLE 404-SWITCHES
404.4 Damp or Wet Locations.
A surface mounted switch or circuit breaker in a damp or wet location shall be enclosed in a weatherproof enclosure or cabinet that shall comply with 312.2.
A flush mounted switchor circuit breaker in a damp or wet location shall be equipped with a weatherproof cover.
Switches shall not be installed within wet locations in tub or shower spaces unless installed as part of a listed tub or shower assembly

{Below is all you posted ....It seems that you left a lot of the code out of your quote!}
Switches shall not be installed within wet locations in tub or shower spaces unless installed as part of a listed tub or shower assembly

[Frank M. Carrio, CMI]

Originally Posted by Jim Port

Frank,

How would you consider that a wet location?
Jim,
I am sorry I did not answer you sooner but unlike many others I do not monitor the NACHI bulletin board each and every day. That being said ..... here is the answer to your question as to why I consider this a "Wet location/ Wet ZONE".

The International Residential Code as well as the National Electric Code are very clear on this matter. See the IRC Code listed below.

E3903.10 Bathtub and shower areas.
Cord-connected luminaries, chain-, cable-, or cord-suspended-luminaries, lighting track, pendants, and ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans shall not have any parts located within a zone measured 3 feet (914 mm) horizontally and 8 feet (2438 mm) verticallyfrom the top of a bathtub rim or shower stall threshold.

This zone is all encompassing and includes the zone directly over the tub or shower. Luminaries located in this zone shall be listed for damp locations and where subject to shower spray, shall be listed for wet locations.

It is outside the footprint of the drained area of the shower pan.
Jim,
With all due respect the IRC code and the NEC code have absolutely nothing to do with the "shower pan".

The "shower pan" is usually located in the center of the shower stall and/or the bathtub.
This means that the length or width of a 3 foot wide, 4 foot wide, or 12 foot wide bathtub or Jacuzzi would have some influence on where the switch was located. As you can see by the codes quoted below the switches have to be located outside of the 36-inch wide "wet zone".

I also scanned the code sections posted by you and did not see any mention of the 3' distance regarding switches.
CHAPTER 39
DEVICES AND LUMINARIES SECTION E3901 SWITCHES
E3901.7 Wet locations.
A switch.... or circuit breaker located in a wet location or outside of a building shall be enclosed in a weatherproof enclosure or cabinet. Switches...... shall not be installed within wet locations in tub or shower spaces unless installed as part of a listed tub or shower assembly.
{IE manufactured "watertight/water resistant" specifically for the installed unit.}

I hope that this information has been of some help!

[Michael Larson]

E3903.10 Bathtub and shower areas.
Cord-connected luminaries, chain-, cable-, or cord-suspended-luminaries, lighting track, pendants, and ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans shall not have any parts located within a zone measured 3 feet (914 mm) horizontally and 8 feet (2438 mm) verticallyfrom the top of a bathtub rim or shower stall threshold.

Frank,

Nothing there about switches. Nothing at all.

Do you still think switches within 3 ft of a shower or tub are in violation of the NEC?

[Frank P. Newman]

As good, "well-rounded" home inspectors, I think we need to be concerned about overall safety as well. From that point of view, and considering the very remote likelihood of electricution from a modern, properly installed, wall switch, I would be more concerned about someone slipping and falling when trying to lean over and reach a switch just outside that 3-foot zone.

[Marcel Gratton]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

ok..this is just getting silly now. Lets not forget to report about squeeks on door hinges also while you are at it. Oh and that everytime you walk over to change the channel on your TV it could shock you...oh wait....can you even change a TV from the set itself anymore...all mine have remotes...lol

Lightning could strike me also as I walk down the street but I am not going to alter my life over it.....it happens. Again we can't fix stupid and if people do stupid things they are gonna get hurt...it is like weeding out the gene pool so to speak. A sad but true fact.....

Mr. *Codeologist*,

I am dissappointed in your opinions regarding the potential life threatening safety issue being discussed here.

Regards,