Lightswitch In Tub Area

[Paul W. Abernathy]

BUT...I agree Michael....it would be NICE to have it defined better because if you move up the wall say 6' is it a wet location ( might be with my son ) but see my definition above....I probably will submit that to the next cycle of the NEC.....who knows.

[Dan Bowers, CMI]

Now, lets get to the real unspoken question. If instead of that being a dimmer switch it was a wall mounted light - is it illegal or legal per code - not common sence OR safety but code.

[Speedy Petey]

A surface mounted fixture would definitely be legal.
The type of tub/shower is one variable though. Point being if the fixture is "subject to shower spray".

Article 410
Luminaires (Lighting Fixtures), Lampholders, and Lamps

410.4 Luminaires in Specific Locations

Part II. Luminaire Locations

The text was modified to clarify the types of luminaires not permitted within 3 ft horizontally and 8 ft vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower stall. And new rule requires luminaires in bathtub or shower zone to be listed for damp locations, or listed for wet locations where subject to shower spray.

(D) Above Bathtubs. No part of chain-, cable-, or cord luminaires, track lighting, or ceiling paddle fans is permitted to be located within 3 ft horizontally and 8 ft vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower stall threshold (bathtub/shower luminaire zone). Figure 410-2

Author’s Comment: The 3 ft by 8 ft bathtub/shower luminaire zone does not apply to recessed or surface mounted luminaires, switches, or receptacles. See 404.4 for switch requirements and 406.8(C) for receptacle requirements. Figure 410-3

Luminaires located in bathtub and shower zone must be listed for damp locations, or listed for wet locations where subject to shower spray.

[Barry Adair]

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey

I truly consider this an alarmist view. Tell me the "potential for electrocution".
("Electrocution".....great alarmist word by the way.)

Thing is you make these statements and go away. Then the seller, buyer and contractors have it out over who is right. All we hear is "The inspector said.....". The we are charged with the task of proving you wrong. It is a "guilty until proven innocent" scenario.

Speedy,

Please provide alternative wording that would be non-offensive to you and defensible in a court of law and I'll consider revising.

[Speedy Petey]

Where did I say I was offended? It's just annoying when we have to prove that something is normal because someone in an assumed position of "power" says it is not.
Like I said, the word "electrocution" is used here to raise an alarm. People fear that word and you know it.
I'll ask again, this is a safe and legal installation, where is the risk of "electrocution"? If it were not safe don't you think someone, somewhere, would have proposed a change???

And there's that court of law thing again. Sorry, thankfully I don't live my life trying to stay out of court. I just do the right thing and I am fine.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

hmmm..I thought we were talking about only switches in the tub or shower space.......luminares are a whole different beast.

[Barry Adair]

Offense/annoyed is just semantics. If you prefer annoyed I'll go with that.

My inability to verify proper bonding and presence of GFCI for the hydro-tub (No access panel) in my thread drift earlier would lead me to err on the overly cautious side. I don't use this as a canned statement for every switch found in a bathroom. I did forget to add to my previous statement in question "unless this can otherwise be verified as a safe installation by a qualified electrician."

Then an "expert" has verified the proper installation of all equipment and all parties concerned can be assured the potential is not there.

Electrocution occurs when a small, specific amount of electrical current flows through the heart for 1 to 3 seconds. 0.006-0.2 Amps (that's 6-200mA milliamps) of current flowing through the heart disrupts the normal coordination of heart muscles. These muscles loose their vital rhythm and begin to fibrilate. Death soon follows.

Maybe I missed something but under the *right circumstances* it doesn't take much.

And I have never nor could I imagine being present to witness the exact scenario required to create such an event in a bathroom.
Jobsite yes (1), bathroom doubtful, unless it was my own and that would end this conversation.

[Speedy Petey]

I am not referring to bonding or GFI confirmation, or access panels. I am directly referring your statement in post #13, regrading "the hydro-tub switch location" posing an electrocution threat.

So you are saying that you think a "to code" installation could pose an "electrocution threat", yet you don't know why.
That is like going out to the parking lot, pointing at a car and saying "That car could kill someone. Better check it out".


Sorry, in my world there is a reasonable sized gap between offended and annoyed. A splinter annoys me, it does not offend me. My previously described scenario is like a splinter.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

lol.....quote someone famous ( and not sure why ) "can't we all just get along"...lol

OK...on a different note.....

680.71 Protection.
Hydromassage bathtubs and their associated
electrical components shall be on an individual branch circuit(s)
and protected by a readily accessible ground-fault circuit
interrupter. All 125-volt, single-phase receptacles not exceeding
30 amperes and located within 1.83 m (6 ft) measured
horizontally of the inside walls of a hydromassage
tub shall be protected by a ground-fault circuit interrupter(
s). [ROP 17-85a, 17-165]

Accessible (as applied to equipment).

Admitting close
approach; not guarded by locked doors, elevation, or other
effective means.

Vessus

Accessible, Readily (Readily Accessible).
Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections
without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite
to climb over or remove obstacles or to resort to portable
ladders, and so forth.


So in MY opinion in 2008 NEC....just having it behind a panel is not considered readily accessible....
having to take off a panel that I MIGHT know know is their..is not Readily Accessible.....Coming in 2008

[Barry Adair]

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey

I am not referring to bonding or GFI confirmation, or access panels. I am directly referring your statement in post #13, regrading "the hydro-tub switch location" posing an electrocution threat.

So you are saying that you think a "to code" installation could pose an "electrocution threat", yet you don't know why.
That is like going out to the parking lot, pointing at a car and saying "That car could kill someone. Better check it out". We have to submit our vehicles to annual safety inspections. I guess the state has this opinion also.

Sorry, in my world there is a reasonable sized gap between offended and annoyed. A splinter annoys me, it does not offend me. My previously described scenario is like a splinter.

Accesibility is exactly what I was referring to back in 13

No access, the whole install is questionable to me, thus the potential

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Remember...the issue of "Readily Accessible" did not come up until the 2008 NEC.....prior it is just Accessible.

However in regards to safety ( which is the HI's concern) if you can
t access it to test it.....report it not as a major defect BUT more so an issue the potential buyer needs to be aware of.

[Dan Bowers, CMI]

We're starting to see a lot of something in new construction with luminaires (lights) in my area that blows my mind but seems to be allowed.

Folks have a whirlpool tub (hydro-massage for some of you). Not a shower. They have a wall mounted light directly over the tub - usually on 2 sides. Romance lighting for mom, pop OR mom/pop OR pop and neighbor lady to sit in tub, drink champagne and while away the time.

First time I saw this I wrote it up and reported it as wrong. Couple days later code guy I know called me - agreed with me that it was dangerous - and then gave me code references to let it be there. Blew me away.

[bschumacher]

Most of the villages/cities near me require any switch to be located no closer than 5 feet to any tub or shower. The inspectors/reviewers claim it is in the IRC not the nEC I will verify tomorrow when I get my copy of the IRC back from a buddy of mine.