a little help

[rcantrell]

is it ok to splice from breaker to solid wire (solid wire was not long enough to get to braeker) with12awg stranded wire. this is a 30 amp breaker. I would put a couple of pics but havnt figured it out yet and kinda need an answer quickly. I dont believe it is ok

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Richard,

Since you are in a hurry I will leave out the code references......1.) If the wire to the breaker is too short and it is in existing work go ahead and splice a wire via WIRENUT to the wire and run a new one to the breaker....HOWEVER...if it is a 30A breaker...you cant use # 12 AWG wire...it needs to be # 10 AWG wire......

So while splicing is fine and in some cases the only thing you can do...it is not ok to splice a # 12 AWG to a 30 A breaker......the breaker must be sized to protect the wire at its smallest size so to speak...in this case it would not be...so it is a big NO to the 12 AWG.........and I wont go into the places that you CAN do it....just based on the info you provided it is incorrect to do it.

Hope this helps

[rcantrell]

Thank you I also thought the wire was too small

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Yep.....and you will get those clients who have a 20A CKT in 12 AWG run to a 30A breaker because the 20A one tripped all the time.......a serious NO-NO.....unless in a specific application where it is allowed...and we wont go their right now..thehehe....WE will keep it simple...tell them to buy some # 10 AWG wire and be done with it....UNLESS the wire that is too short is # 12 AWG as well.....then they need to buy a NEW breaker that is 20A.....

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

12 AWG run to a 30A breaker ......a serious NO-NO.....unless in a specific application where it is allowed...

Common in many condenser units. Check the panel labeling (if it exists). Otherwise, defer it. . .

[Robert Wade]

I have been told that under no circumstances are wire nuts acceptable in a breaker panel and that the condition should be called out as a defect, just like double lugging. Or is this a different situation?

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

I believe you have been misinformed. Although panel boards are not technically "junction boxes," wire nuts are not specifically disallowed.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Dang Jeff....Did you not read my post...lol...I said I did not want to go their...lol

[Paul W. Abernathy]

The only limitation to the panel is in space and how much you take up of it....nothing against wirenuts in the panel itself so calling that out is incorrect.

In fact the simple solution sometimes to a client that has double taps and no space left in the panel is to tell them to remove the wires from the breaker.....wirenut them together and take a pigtail to the breaker so only one is on the breaker.....NOW....make sure they size the pigtail to match the wire sizes that were on the breaker...and make sure the wires are all the same AWG........but this removes the double tap issue.....

NOw I am not saying homeowners need to do this...BUT you know they will try anything once...might be the last time they try it but it will remove the issue of double tapping.....not to take the place of doing actual load calculations which the HI should not attempt...

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

I went there for you Paul

[Mark A. Timpani, CMI]

good info

[Paul W. Abernathy]

lol...I feel the love Jeff.....I truly feel the love...NOT..lol

[Robert Wade]

Jeff and Paul, Thank you for your help.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Also...just in case you would like some light reading....

NEC Art 312.8 - Defines it quite well.....in laymans terms the splices ( ie: wirenuts ) SHALL NOT fill the wiring space at any cross section to more than 75% of the cross sectional area of that space....

Now......dont even bother with trying to solve that math.....when you see a overly crowded panel with NO room at all within it...you can BET it breaches that requirement as well as 312.7.....but figured you should know....

also important to note that a Service Enclosure is not a junction box...by any means...as Jeff stated...while you can splice to extend as in the explanation above....you cant use it to junction to other OCPD enclosures per say....Unless space is provided in the enclosure for this purpose....yada...yada..yada......you get the point.

[Greg Fretwell]

I think, if someone did challenge you to do the math, it would be hard to show >75% fill.