Looking for study materials or sites

[Nick Gromicko]

Brian writes:

You EARN respect by setting up a system with rigorous and defendable standards, especially as we are dealing with people who are spending a lot of $$$$$. We have waiver/limits of liability clauses on most contracts, weak standards, virtually no strong regulations, realtors' preferred lists/conflicts of interest, admitted marketing "gimmick" designations........what other professional business sounds like this? doctors, engineers, lawyers, accountants, electricians, mechanics...........

Our industry standards are already defendable and no court in the U.S. or Canada has ever struck so much as an apostrophe from either InterNACHI's residential or commercial Standards of Practice.

The medical profession you mention, uses waivers of liability all the time.

Both the MICB and InterNACHI already prohibit paying agents for work. Sorry you didn't get the memo.

Both the MICB and InterNACHI already prohibit offering repair services to correct defects found on a home inspection. Sorry you didn't get the memo.

Every profession you mentioned has professional designations. Don't make me look them all up on google and post them for you.

The internship for all the professions you mention (except for surgeons) is equal to or less than CMI's experience requirement of 3 years.

[Nick Gromicko]

Just checked the experience requirements in the states for becoming a CPA (Certified Public Accountant). None of the states I checked requires as much experience as CMI (Certified Master Inspector) does... which is 3 years.

[Wayne B. Wilson]

Originally Posted by Brian A. MacNeish

You EARN respect by setting up a system with rigorous and defendable standards, especially as we are dealing with people who are spending a lot of $$$$$. We have waiver/limits of liability clauses on most contracts, weak standards, virtually no strong regulations, realtors' preferred lists/conflicts of interest, admitted marketing "gimmick" designations........what other professional business sounds like this? doctors, engineers, lawyers, accountants, electricians, mechanics...........

Brain you continuous have negative things to say on here never postive so why keep coming back ? No problem with criticism but Gezzz give it a rest

[Christopher Currins]

Originally Posted by gromicko

Just checked the experience requirements in the states for becoming a CPA (Certified Public Accountant). None of the states I checked requires as much experience as CMI (Certified Master Inspector) does... which is 3 years.

One difference, to become a CPA you must pass an examination. CMI "designation" does not require such.

CPA certificate is issued upon successful completion of the CPA examination and “Professional Ethics: the AICPA’s Comprehensive Course.”

[Nick Gromicko]

Because of CMIs educational requirements which likely include exams and because many CMIs are in licensed states or provinces that also have either initial educational requirements that include exams, continuing educational requirements that include exams, a licensing exam, or a combination of the three, and because many CMIs are members of professional associations that require exams and also have continuing education requirements that include exams...the average CMI has taken quite a few exams in his/her career.

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by gromicko

Because of CMIs educational requirements which likely include exams and because many CMIs are in licensed states or provinces that also have either initial educational requirements that include exams, continuing educational requirements that include exams, a licensing exam, or a combination of the three, and because many CMIs are members of professional associations that require exams and also have continuing education requirements that include exams...the average CMI has taken quite a few exams in his/her career.

If all the requirements and spinning you have done in the past few posts can't convince long term, experienced, good inspectors with strong personal integrity to become CMI.....what's the problem? You couldn't even buy one of these guys a few days ago................

They don't see it as rigorous and defendable.....or else they'd be running and stumbling over each other to become one!!!

[Nick Gromicko]

You can lead a horse to water. Look at InterNACHI with all its www.nachi.org/benefits.htm There are still inspectors out there who haven't joined InterNACHI. Heck, if an independent businessman can't recognize the over obvious value proposition InterNACHI offers for $365, how is he going to recognize over obvious defects in a home? I don't want to say that non-members are too dumb to inspect but...

[George P. Wells, CMI]

Originally Posted by sfogarty

Found what should be a good start on ebay. Not a bad price either.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...torefresh=true

Sean,

Those are U.S. government training manuals that are in the public domain. They are excellent manuals. The US government has been making them harder to obtain in recent years.

I have a collection of hundreds of U.S. government training manuals. The quality varies quite a lot because many of them are scans of paper copies. We spent hundreds of hours going through them to find the best copies. I'll start posting some of the better ones on my website in the Education Center as time permits. I'll try to get a few of them up today.

I also have a CD of electrical calculators that includes some of the better U.S. government manuals. The main purpose of the CD is the calculators. I originally created the CD for classes I do for electricians.

Mike Holt had a couple of the calculators posted for download on his website but I haven't checked recently to see if they are still there. The Fault-Current calculator was one that Mike Holt and I both contributed to. Mike did the original but it was a little difficult for non-engineers people so I rewrote it to make it easier for electricians to use. I'll post some of the calculators too.

If you are interested in the CD, the CD's content is free. We sell the CD for $10 to cover my costs. It is a professionally produced CD packaged in a DVD case. http://www.bestinspectors.net/produc...-reference.htm

As a side note, it is true that most licensing exams deal with electrical codes. I have been teaching electrical code classes for many years but I don't like to talk about codes much outside of doing my contractor continuing education classes because I believe it is important to understand electricity and electrical systems before delving too much into codes. Consequently, you will find very little among my articles or training materials dealing with codes. When I get code questions outside the classroom, I send everyone to Paul.

[George P. Wells, CMI]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

EXCELLENT info Mr. Wells....Me Likes It !

Thanks Paul! As you know, I don't do electrical installations any more but I still do electrical consulting and still teach so I maintain my license for those reasons.

In fact, speaking of doing consulting, I have a case I'm working on that you may be called upon for your NEC expertise. I gave your name to my client's lawyers a few weeks ago. We are preparing for trial and my client's lawyers may want an interpretation of a specific set of NEC requirements that relate to a specific construction deficiency. They want an independent NEC expert who is not local.

[George P. Wells, CMI]

Originally Posted by Brian A. MacNeish

Thank-you, George, for letting the board know what some other vocations require such that one may truly be called a MASTER of their profession and be proud of it......rather than Master being set up for marketing purposes only-the "marketing gimmick" foisted on "the public without a clue"!!

I can't believe that you would have participated in the weak CMI requirements!!

Brian,

You have been clear about the fact that you do not support the CMI certification. However, I am not sure I understand what your specific objections are to it. Based on your description of it being "weak" and your comments comparing it to electrical or other trades, I presume that at least one of your objections to it has to do with its requirements not being stringent enough so I'll address that point.

I want to be clear that I am neither agreeing nor disagreeing with you. I am assuming that you have one or more valid criticisms of CMI. My intent is only to explain my view with respect to the differences among various certifications and licenses and my participation in with the development of CMI.

I have been involved with apprenticeships, certification and licensing in trades and occupations in construction and outside construction. None of them are perfect. None are without their critics and opponents. All should be reviewed periodically and adapted, as needed, to a changing world. For my part, I try to listen to and understand opposing points of view. What is interesting is that arguments on both sides are usually valid and well though-out. We are often faced with completely opposite points of view that are all valid. It would be so much easier if it were a clear case of one side being right and the other side being wrong.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, and others have mentioned, the requirements for a commercial journeyman electrician typically include 8,000 hours practical experience. In addition to the practical experience, 1,600 classroom hours is typical. That is a lot of education and a lot of practical experience. That is one example of an industry standard. Now, let's consider the requirements to become a J.D. In order to earn a Juris Doctor degree in the United States, the American Bar Association requires 1,120 classroom - or non-classroom academic training - hours and a total of 80 hours of testing. There is no practical experience requirement. It is, in fact, the lowest requirement of any doctorate degree. It is roughly the equivalent of a Master's degree in other fields.

The requirements to become a general electrical, plumbing, HVAC, Refrigeration or Hydronics contractor are significantly greater than the requirements to become a lawyer in almost every one of the 50 states. A reasonably intelligent person with an undergraduate degree in history, humanity or one of the other relatively easy degree areas can expect to become a lawyer in approximately three years. In most states, it would be impossible to become a licensed contractor in any of the core construction trades in that short amount of time.

Texas was one of the first states to license home inspectors and is one of the toughest states in which to qualify as a home inspector. Texas has two paths leading to licensing as a home inspector. The requirements for both paths are relatively light when compared to the construction trades. One path involves 120 classroom hours and three years experience in home inspection or a related field. That is for "Real Estate Inspector". Texas has another classification, "Professional Inspector" that requires 328 classroom hours and five years experience.

The CMI could have been made to be on par with the core construction trades Master/General Contractor requirement by requiring a 16,000 to 18,000 hours combined education and experience but it would have been so far from the established standards in the inspection industry that it is very unlikely that it would been accepted by the industry.

During our CMI proceedings, I personally pushed for the highest numbers that made sense based on the way the industry is already structured and what we could reasonably anticipate would serve the industry well for the present and the foreseeable future. I was the one who brought up requirements in other industries at every opportunity. I believe in making certifications fair and accessible but I also believed then, and still believe, that we should be raising the standard to a new level. We are professionals. If we want to be perceived as professionals on par with other real estate professionals, and paid accordingly, we have to have standards that match the knowledge that we need to have to be of value to the real estate industry. It is going to take time and, I'm sure, lots of debate. For now, I am satisfied with the requirements.

My goal for our industry is to do anything I can to make it better and to raise the level of respect we deserve and that we get. I certainly don't have all the answers. I am certain that any one of a thousand inspectors actively working in the trade could have, and would have, done just as good a job as we did. We were one group working on things we felt we could help with. We did the best we knew how to do. The only thing I can say to you or to anyone else is that we had a sincere desire, and made a sincere effort, to do something positive for our industry.

Many others participated in the development of CMI. Some picked up where we left off. Others worked on completely different aspects of it. Perhaps the best thing that I can say about CMI is that a lot of people participated. It was as democratic a process as any I've been involved with. Having lots of people involved usually increases the quality of something like this, up to a leveling off point. There is, however, a balance to be maintained. That being the balance of democracy, quality and progress. There is a point at which having more people involved does not necessarily improve the quality of decisions or the outcome.

Beyond a certain point, increasing the number of participants only slows the progress. The phenomenon is similar to what is called the "statistical confidence interval" in statistics. In statistics the increase in quality of a evaluation or prediction based on sample size diminishes to the point of leveling off. In other words, a larger sample size does not yield a significantly better result. A similar concept in operations research is known as the optimization intersection point and a similar concept in general business parlance is known as the point of diminishing returns or the Law of Diminishing Returns.

[Will E. Duit]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

P.S. Never visit electriantalk's website...it is moderated by idiots and they will lead you on the wrong path every time my friend.....visit TRUSTED websites for knowledge.

I agree that you should never visit electriciantalk.com. When I want true expert electrical advice, I go to www.electriciansjobtalk.com. It is hands down the most professional site and they are alot more friendly over there.

[Christopher Currins]

Originally Posted by Will E. Duit

I agree that you should never visit electriciantalk.com. When I want true expert electrical advice, I go to www.electriciansjobtalk.com. It is hands down the most professional site and they are alot more friendly over there.

SPAM!

[Robert Meier]

Originally Posted by ccurrins

SPAM!

I checked that site and was completely underwhelmed. You might be right.