Minor grounding issues in the panel worth mentioning

[Michael Larson]

Originally Posted by kshepard

My understanding:
2 neutrals under one terminal OK as long as it's two 12 ga. or two 14 ga.
Different sizes bad because they creat poor connection.

I guess the same holds true for ground wires.

Kenton,

What am I missing that doesn't square up with Paul's statement #1 in post 7 ????????

[Paul W. Abernathy]

All my posts square up fella...........the problem is like the NEC in how someone translates it.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Originally Posted by pdoane

Paul, you said "grounded terminal buss bar" So it ok to double up neutrals on a sub panel per say, or does this apply to all?

Not allowed to double up on any Grounded Wires Terminal Buss ( difference in Grounded and Grounding....guess since I dont do NACHI seminars anymore the mystery of the Grounding and Bonding lives on...lol ) .....the BUSS in a main panel and sub-panel are still the "GROUNDED" Terminal Buss....just the fact it is "FLOATING" in the sub panel does not remove the fact it is the "grounded" conductor....terminogy fellas....its all in the Terminology...

it is never a good idea to have a Neutral " Grounded" conductor doubled up at all....against UL Standard 67.......in any case....refer to my previous POSTS on why it is a problem....I get tired of typing crap over and over again.......Take Care....

[Michael Larson]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

All my posts square up fella...........the problem is like the NEC in how someone translates it.

I'm not sure about square but your certainly a straight shooter.

I was gently inplying that Kenton misread your post with regard to two neutrals under the same screw.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

lol......thanks brother....yeah I shoot from the HIP...

it is what us country, non-educated electricians do best..

[Kenton H. Shepard, CMI]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

1.) The doubling up of Neutrals on a Grounded Terminal Buss has been a violation going back to the Standard 67 of the UL and been required by many panel manufacturers.

Part of the problem here Paul is that the way you have written it, you appear to be saying that "The doubling up of Neutrals on a Grounded Terminal Buss has been a violation" and at the same time it has "been required by many panel manufacturers".

Does this mean that panel manufacturers have required the doubling up of neutrals in violation of Standard 67?

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Originally Posted by kshepard

Part of the problem here Paul is that the way you have written it, you appear to be saying that "The doubling up of Neutrals on a Grounded Terminal Buss has been a violation" and at the same time it has "been required by many panel manufacturers".

Does this mean that panel manufacturers have required the doubling up of neutrals in violation of Standard 67?

Ken I dont know what the hell you are saying fella...lol.....

I have been very clear.........so I will try again...

1.) It has been a NEC violation for MANY years to have Neutrals ( grounded Conductors ) under the same terminal on the Neutral Buss....it was because the Standard 67 of the UL did not allow it.......so when the NEC said equipment must be installed according to the manufacturers information and instructions.......many electricians don't carry around a UL book...heck I know I dont...got one in the office but not in the truck....

So....I wont rehash WHY it is wrong and what it could potentially mean as I was clear on that......

Understand this.....Grounding Conductor is different than Grounded Conductor in terminology......

So....regardless of it being a main panel which you could say the BUSS BAR is a grounded and grounding terminal Buss Bar.....in a SUB Panel you have seperate Grounded and Grounding Buss Bars......do you understand...

Long story short...no it is not good to have neutral conductors ( really called Grounded Conductors ) doubled up under the same set screw on the buss bar.....Grounding Conductors ( bare copper wires ) it is fine in accordance with what the manufacturer tells you...for example many will have a label in it that gives the termination TORQUE and it will also tell you how many grounding conductors ( of the same size ) can share a terminal on the BUSS.

Hmmm....let me see if I have a picture for you...

Author’s Comment: If two grounded (neutral) conductors are connected to the same terminal, and someone removes one of the neutrals, the other neutral may unintentionally be removed as well. If that happens to the grounded (neutral) conductor of a multiwire circuit, it could result in excessive line-to-neutral voltage for one of the circuits. For example, a 120/240V multiwire circuit, with one circuit having a 24 ohm load and the other circuit having an 12 ohm load, a loose neutral could result in as much as 160V across a 120V rated load.

Intent: This new section should ensure that grounded (neutral) conductors terminate within the panelboard to an individual terminal. This has been a UL requirement (UL Std. 67 – Panelboard Standard) for some time, and the addition to the NEC is intended to bring this information to the installers. Technically, this is covered by 110.3(B), which requires all equipment to be installed in accordance with the manufacturer's installation instructions and markings, but nobody knew it existed. UL Std. 67 (Panelboard Standard) permits up to three 10 AWG equipment grounding conductors to terminate on a single terminal, if the terminal is marked for this purpose. Figure 408-3

The intent of this requirement is to ensure that the grounded (neutral) conductor of a multiwire branch circuit is not momentarily disconnected, which could result in the destruction of electrical equipment and fires from overvoltage.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

hope that helps fella.......as always you can call me if you continue to be confused over it.....I am always here for you guys......

But remember I am not the Electrical Expert....just a poor old hick from VA that happens to be an Electrician....

[Peter Doane]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

hope that helps fella.......as always you can call me if you continue to be confused over it.....I am always here for you guys......

But remember I am not the Electrical Expert....just a poor old hick from VA that happens to be an Electrician....

Paul,
Please dont get fustrated with us. I think the main reason I, and maybe the other want to beat info out of you is to make sure we have it right. If any one thing is more dangerous in a home it would be the electrical or at least one of the top three. Thats all. I know its fustrating to rehash the same comments over and over and we (I know I do) appreciate you being here. Thanks for all your help!

[Kenton H. Shepard, CMI]

It's true, Paul. I also appreciate the time you take to post and your expertise. Even with a 30-year background in the trades I consistantly have trouble following explanations not just from you but from many electricians. I think it's the nature of the trade. Maybe it's me. Anyway, I don't want to screw up, so sometimes I keep asking until I'm sure I understand.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

lol...I was only teasing guys....lol.......I dont get frustrated....lol...if I did I would have fired my HELPERS a long time ago......

I don't get frustrated....Kenton...ASK..ASK..ASK.......I am a OPEN book to you my friend.......Peter......I enjoy helping so no worries guys you can't frustrate me.....only my WIFE can do that.......oh...and maybe a few other select people...lol...not you guys...!

[jtedesco1]

Please vote YES here: xxx

I agree!