Multiple grounds

[gmathias]

A recent client called in an electrician to address some of the issues that I called out. After he (the electrician)minimized my comments on multiple neutrals on one terminal, he told me that since the panel was 200amps, it needed two grounding electrodes. One for each 100amps of service. Has anyone else heard of this? I have not found any reference to this. Thanks.

[Greg Fretwell]

Try another electrician. This guy is clueless

[Mike Whitt]

Originally Posted by Greg Fretwell

Try another electrician. This guy is clueless

I agree
If he means two rods it would be due to the wording in 250.56 or if it is water pipe then 250.53.
The size of the service plays no role in the number or type of electrodes that are installed.

I would also be concerned with the things that he minimized.

[Speedy Petey]

Originally Posted by gmathias

...he told me that since the panel was 200amps, it needed two grounding electrodes. One for each 100amps of service.

Cluless?? How about brainless.

I SINCERELY hope this guy was joking!

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

Originally Posted by gmathias

. . . One for each 100amps of service. . . I have not found any reference to this.

. . . and you won't.

[tdietrich1]

Ah you guys seem to be missing the point. When someone tells me something has to be one way, or another, I usually follow up with..... why?

This electrician might now that the AHJ will not approve installations with less than 2 ground rods over 100 amp services.

Back to the OP's questions, not that specifically, but weirdness of AHJ's in Pa? Oh yes. I have one, very respectable (might be a pain to some) but I respect his knowledge, option, and position, that refuses to allow GFCI's on non-grounded circuits. Although allowed by by the NEC, he wasn't a separate ground run, and if you run a 'separate' ground, then you are in violation another article(he'll inform you of that before you run it), and the only option is to re-run the circuit. This is from what I've learned from him, and other electricians who have worked on older houses.

tom

[rromoser]

Is he willing to pay for the upgrade cost of rewiring? $$$.

[Brian A. MacNeish]

but weirdness of AHJ's in Pa? Oh yes. I have one, very respectable (might be a pain to some) but I respect his knowledge, option, and position, that refuses to allow GFCI's on non-grounded circuits.

A GFCI trips at 5-10 milliamps leakage to ground (possibly through you!!!).

A 15 amp fuse or breaker trips a two conductor circuit with ground at 15 amps leakage to ground wire does 100% ensure that no current will go through you. If something is leaking 10 amps somewhere and is not causing a "dead short" that opens the circuit.......what may happen???

I would rather have a GFCI protecting that circuit!!!

[tdietrich1]

Originally Posted by Brian A. MacNeish

I would rather have a GFCI protecting that circuit!!!

I guess you didn't understand what I wrote, you CAN after your route a ground, via a wiring method that has one. NM w/ ground, AC, MC, etc....

tom

P.S. For the OP, give the AHJ a call, he/she has the final call. I know of places where they don't even check for grounding rods.

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Thomas:

I was implying that an ungrounded circuit protected by a GFI is safer than a two conductor with ground when small amp shorts/leakage are not tripping a 15 amp overcurrent device. Sure it's fine to put the GFI in after a new circuit wire is run but as someone else said "who's going to pay for the extra wiring costs?" The reason we have uniform codes is so all work done is safely and all are treated equally. Sounds like if you step outside the town or county you're in, safe, code approved wiring may be cheaper

The fact that a code official is overstepping their authority without having the law to back them is atrocious. If an electrician wanted to wire beyond code minimums that is their decision and it benefits his/her customers. But for the inspector to decide that a code drawn up by some of the most experienced in the electrical industry by concensus is not adequate..............what if every type of inspector did this?? Someone should be challenging him.

[Marc D. Shunk]

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey

Cluless?? How about brainless.

I SINCERELY hope this guy was joking!

I don't think he was joking. We're talking about the northern end of PA coal country in Lewisburg. Think a whole different culture... "Deliverance" style. Stop in a bit to the east and enjoy a day at Knoebel's Amusement Park, and you'll fill up your camera with serious electrical code violations in that place. Lots of farm rigging and mine rigging going on in that place.

[jbreazeale]

The AHJ can pretty much do what it wants to, outside of uniform state codes....IF the state has one.