Name that defect? Care to play?

[Michael Greenwalt]

FYI, although this is an old post, just in case others read through this thread: Six throws is incorrect. The size of your hand was never a consideration when writing the NEC. If you were to say six disconnects you would get a prize:

230.71 Maximum Number of Disconnects.
(A) General. The service disconnecting means for each service permitted by 230.2, or for each set of service-entrance conductors permitted by 230.40, Exception No. 1, 3, 4, or 5, shall consist of not more than six switches or sets of circuit breakers, or a combination of not more than six switches and sets of circuit breakers, mounted in a single enclosure, in a group of separate enclosures, or in or on a switchboard. There shall be not more than six sets of disconnects per service grouped in any one location.

When you think 6, do not think throws, or hand.

Thanks

[Patrick Bolliger]

Will,

That panel has a lot that is questionable to me... All to common with older multi-unit buildings.. In fact I had one inspection that had the same equipment.. wonder if your in the same building...

Lets see... The left side breakers don't appear to be labeled.. They look like original breakers. BUT on the other hand they maybe the original breakers and the ones on the "right" are newer and possible a different brand.

The wiring could be undersized since we can't tell ratings of left side breakers.. Is there a panel in the unit?

The Hot gutter is in picture #1 yet the dead face to that panel is missing a screw... The breaker labels are probably poorly described.. Is there a "common" main cutoff upstream of this??

The three grounded (neutrals) are common to see even with six breakers in the panel. I bet this place is from the 1920's that had an "upgrade" to equipment.. Limited /old or replaced receptacles probably painted over or changed to three prong Recep's... No proper "ground" and very questionable cloth wires at the apartment / condo area connected at a main "huge" j box that loose like spagetti wiring.to newer synthetic wiring. No proper "bonding" or continuous metal "conduit" path.. Did you see the old black conduit in the basement ceiling somewhere?

If you think that an AFCI or GFCI breaker belongs in this panel...GOOD luck... Half the equipment is older then my underwear...

What is the "Main" rating? Meter? 60 amps? Bet the service conductors are as old as the equipment...is and undersized for the building needs today... Just wait till the client wants central air, dishwasher, TV in every room, computer with three prong into two prong unpolarized receps... Extension cables everywhere.. No laundry / kitchen circuit.... Doesn't matter cuz only a house fire is going to change anything....

I don't have a CODE reference ...I'll leave that to guys like you...


Don't get shot Will.......by the next "contractor" or CI.....

[Marcel Gratton]

6 live wires, 3 neutral wires and one 240V circuit (no tie bar) = 1 circuit using ground as neutral...

[Jeffrey R. Wicklander]

Originally Posted by mgratton

6 live wires, 3 neutral wires and one 240V circuit (no tie bar) = 1 circuit using ground as neutral...

Curious as to how you came to that conclusion...

Jeff

[Marcel Gratton]

Originally Posted by jwicklander

Curious as to how you came to that conclusion...

Jeff

There is 6 breakers and only 3 neutrals; the right side of panel 2 upper breakers have a black and a red wire which indicates a 240 V circuit (without a tie-bar).

That leaves 1 circuit without a neutral or using the metal conduit as neutral???

[Jeffrey R. Wicklander]

Originally Posted by mgratton

There is 6 breakers and only 3 neutrals; the right side of panel 2 upper breakers have a black and a red wire which indicates a 240 V circuit (without a tie-bar).

That leaves 1 circuit without a neutral or using the metal conduit as neutral???

Black and red on two adjacent breakers does not necessarily mean that it's a 240V circuit (unless that is a requirement up north). If romex is used, a 240V circuit would likely use those colors because that is what is available in the cable. These are all individual runs of wire in conduit. Also, a 240V appliance can use a neutral. An example would be a 240V stove, where a neutral would be pulled to take care of the 'dashboard' lights and timer/clock. If you wanted to stick with the 240V plausible theory, there might be two MWC sharing neutrals and a 240V appliance using a neutral.

Jeff

[Marcel Gratton]

Originally Posted by jwicklander

Black and red on two adjacent breakers does not necessarily mean that it's a 240V circuit (unless that is a requirement up north). If romex is used, a 240V circuit would likely use those colors because that is what is available in the cable. These are all individual runs of wire in conduit. Also, a 240V appliance can use a neutral. An example would be a 240V stove, where a neutral would be pulled to take care of the 'dashboard' lights and timer/clock. If you wanted to stick with the 240V plausible theory, there might be two MWC sharing neutrals and a 240V appliance using a neutral.

Jeff,

I am aware of 240V appliances needing a neutral (e.g. stove and dryer), but was thinking of perhaps an electric heater or AC unit.

Interesting...

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Originally Posted by Michael Greenwalt

FYI, although this is an old post, just in case others read through this thread: Six throws is incorrect. The size of your hand was never a consideration when writing the NEC. If you were to say six disconnects you would get a prize:

230.71 Maximum Number of Disconnects.
(A) General. The service disconnecting means for each service permitted by 230.2, or for each set of service-entrance conductors permitted by 230.40, Exception No. 1, 3, 4, or 5, shall consist of not more than six switches or sets of circuit breakers, or a combination of not more than six switches and sets of circuit breakers, mounted in a single enclosure, in a group of separate enclosures, or in or on a switchboard. There shall be not more than six sets of disconnects per service grouped in any one location.

When you think 6, do not think throws, or hand.

Thanks

Great information and is correct....however that is not worthy of a prize since that is not the problem in the pictures.