Neat GFCI Experiment

[relliott]

Rich are you sure you do not mean between hot and neutral, since a GFCI does not require ground and is concidered to be a good way to protect your self when there is no ground.

[Richard L. Bennett]

Robert

Yes, I am sure GFCI will not trip with a person between hot and neutral -- you are just another light bulb. It will save NO lives

If the person (you) are between hot and ground it will trip and you will live

This is one of the big miss understandings about GFCI's -- they will not protect you in all conditions. Dead is Dead if you are between hot and neutral and it does not take long

Just hope that you are also bare foot in the bath tub to cause the GFCI to trip

Sort of sounds funny to say that you should have you feet in water when working around electricty but in this case it is true and WILL SAVE YOUR AND YOUR LOVED ONES LIFE

Do it without your bare feet in the water and you will die

This is a once in a life time lesson that very few get to take again

Get in your bare feet when working down stream of a GOOD GFCI when the hot is hot. It will save your life if your wet feet are in contact with ground. Your will get your but warmed if not

rlb

[Greg Fretwell]

I wish I could find the data but many years ago when it was Joe T and his gang of electrical inspectors yacking on Prodigy I did some testing of water conductivity looking at voltage across a 60w lamp and current. I had a white bucket with 2 12 ga probes immersed 6 in the water and 8" apart. Distilled water and a clean bucket did not conduct at all. My well water passed something like 150-200ma and the bulb glowed. If I used water off the dock (about 19PPT salt half what the ocean is) the bulb was bright and current was well over 400ma.

BTW all of this was on a GFCI protected receptacle.
The water in this case, without any ground reference or other path for current to leak away, was just "load".

I can guarantee dropping a 3 wire extension cord in the water off the dock will trip a GFCI and this has been "tested" more than once. I assume a 2 wire cord would too but I haven't got any. It is not the water per se that does it. The GFCI trips because the water is grounded, not sitting in a plastic bucket.

[jtedesco1]

Originally Posted by Marc D. Shunk

Yeah, the company from that thing you watched on TV is actually right down the road from me. Agrotors, Inc.

http://www.youtube.com/v/Z3q9WdjD5wc

They are performing:

Bare Hand Work –

A technique of performing work on live parts, after the employee has been raised to the potential of the live part. (2004 NFPA 70E)

[relliott]

GFCI is much more subtle. When you look at a normal 120-volt outlet in the United States, there are two vertical slots and then a round hole centered below them. The left slot is slightly larger than the right. The left slot is called "neutral," the right slot is called "hot" and the hole below them is called "ground." If an appliance is working properly, all electricity that the appliance uses will flow from hot to neutral. A GFCI monitors the amount of current flowing from hot to neutral. If there is any imbalance, it trips the circuit. It is able to sense a mismatch as small as 4 or 5 milliamps, and it can react as quickly as one-thirtieth of a second.

Rich this is off how stuff works.
If you sudenly grab the hot conductor the imbalance should be noticed , going by what I see in this information.
Suprised Joe T has not chimed in.

[Richard L. Bennett]

Robert

Touching the hot side does NOTHING to the GFCI or you until you also touch something else

Ground and it trips

Neutral and it will not trip but you will become the light bulb

GFCI's only save your tail under a condition when you are in a HOT to GROUND condition

Thus a GROUND FAULT

A kid playing with paper clips in a wall socket can still become toast without tripping the GFCI

Someone help here -- I wish I could explain it better

Maybe we need to do a NACHI TV experiment on this one

One could down load it to the Lap top and use it to show a client how these things work

I don't like the idea of using a kid, his or her pet or a tree rat at a clients kitchen sink -- all thought some help from a used house sales person might be possible

rlb

[Barry Adair]

Originally Posted by rbennett

Robert

Someone help here -- I wish I could explain it better

Maybe we need to do a NACHI TV experiment on this one

all thought some help from a used house sales person might be possible

rlb

Robert,

You've explained it very well but this may drive the point home.

[Richard L. Bennett]

Barry

To me I understand

It is just how would I tell a mother that her kid is dead after he or she put two paper clips into the outside GFCI outlet on a DRY day

Same problem with the metal garage door that we saw about 6 months ago when the child died

Yes it is the power or weakness of the English language and the understanding of same but we must try

This is where the NACHI TV might help

Got to go do a SATURDAY HI inspection -- I take them when I get them

rlb

[jtedesco1]

This one worked and tripped the GFCI in the hotel bathroom in NH

I have another video from a hotel in Connecticut where the hair dryer drop sink caper did not work, it just kept running and running!

Will post it later.

[Scott F. Coslett]

Richard -

Your answers #15 and #17....are.....CORRECT!

GFCI's trip when there is a current difference between ground and the neutral. GFCI give NO protection when a person is between the Hot and the Neutral. If that is you, your but is going to get warm

Yes, I am sure GFCI will not trip with a person between hot and neutral -- you are just another light bulb. It will save NO lives

In the bucket experiment, the current doesn't care if it is lighting up a light bulb or heating the water molecules (by the way, maybe we should put a thermometer in the water). It is easy to get hung up on the presence of the water. Stated another way, this is the same thing as simply plugging a lamp into a GFCI on a circuit with an open ground. GFCI won't trip.

The breaker in the bucket experiment won't trip until the leads are touched or the resistance of the water is lowered (salt) completing the circuit and tripping the breaker.

[relliott]

If all this is true I guess I should quit wasting my breath telling people to put i GFCI and save the money.Right?

[Greg Fretwell]

Robert, most people get shocked when they are grounded and touch the hot side. The GFCI will save you from that one so it is a good idea. If you get between the hot and neutral you are just "load"

[rbrady]

It did not trip the GFCI because there was no electrical current path between hot and ground. If the bucket was metal, it would have tripped.

I worked a lot with water conductivity, and regular tap water is fairly conductive. You have to have some pretty pure water (e.g. distilled) for it to act as an insulator.

[relliott]

Gottya,and just trying to get it totaly straight once and for all.
Electricity is simple on the surface but often hard to imagine as it does not relate to water flowing in a pipe as many of us were taught in school.
I have worked with electric most of my life and still have a hard time with things such as three phase when it comes to understanding.
I think most Inspectors do also, though they will not admit it.
Being able to recite code and actualy understanding theory are different animals.

[rbrady]

As far as water conductivity, Sometimes when I use my 3-light tester on a washing machine receptacle it will look OK. If most of the house has open grounds, I will then unplug the washing machine, and more times than not the receptacle turns out to be open ground.
This is true even when the washing machine is connected with rubber hoses. The ground connection was going through the water and feeding back through the washing machine plug to show up as a grounded receptacle.
I'm sure that the current capacity is minimal, but the water was making the ground connection.