Need help with main panel board buss bar

[Mike Whitt]

Originally Posted by jtedesco1

See110.14, been in the Code for many years.

110.14 Electrical Connections.
(A) Terminals. Terminals for more than one conductor and terminals used to connect aluminum shall be so identified.

The terninals are identified for more than one conductor on the UL label

Originally Posted by jtedesco1

I stand behind all of my comments. links, and continue with what I believe is what this industry has been taught for many years.

And you have this right to continue as long as you like no matter if you are right or wrong.

All I am looking to do is give the Home Inspector the correct information to make his call so there won't continue to be the conflict between Home Inspectors and electrical inspectors and contractors that we have today and in the past.

We both have presented our case and given links to what each of us think is the intent of the process and all that is left is for the Home Inspectors to make up their own minds.

The bottom line is which can produce the best backing when it comes down to presenting the information.

As the contractor working for the seller of a home I will use the same material that I use to make the installation and that the code enforcement official used to inspect.
I will also ask you the Home Inspector working for the buyer to show me the data to back your comment.

Can you see the delimma that this would put the Home Inspector in Joe?
This means that the Home Inspector would need every copy of UL Standard 67 for the year every house he inspected was built. Even then there is no language that would allow it to be enforced.

I agree that two grounds (neutrals) under one screw is not good practice but there is nothing that can mandate them be changed if installed before 2002.

Being that you have a copy of 67 how about scanning the part where it covers the installation of neutrals for us all to see.

[jtedesco1]

12.3.10 An individual terminal shall be provided for the connection of each branch-circuit neutral conductor.

[Mike Whitt]

Originally Posted by jtedesco1

12.3.10 An individual terminal shall be provided for the connection of each branch-circuit neutral conductor.

Can you scan it and then post it so we all can see it. please.

Here (see1.1 a) is what I found by clicking on 486-A at the botton of this link

[jtedesco1]

Don't have a scanner, besides the document is a PDF file, I copied the section above.

[Mike Whitt]

Originally Posted by jtedesco1

Don't have a scanner, besides the document is a PDF file, I copied the section above.

Then could please post the link to that doc.?

[jtedesco1]

Originally Posted by Mike Whitt

Can you scan it and then post it so we all can see it. please.

Here (see1.1 a) is what I found by clicking on 486-A at the botton of this link

UL486A covers Wire Connectors!

[jtedesco1]

Originally Posted by Mike Whitt

Then could please post the link to that doc.?

How can I post a link to the UL 67 11th R2003.PDF file on my computer Mike?

I am not sure about what more you need?

[Mike Whitt]

Originally Posted by jtedesco1

How can I post a link to the UL 67 11th R2003.PDF file on my computer Mike?

I am not sure about what more you need?

If it is a file on you computer then you can copy and paste it to this forum. I would like to see the entire page if it isn't to much trouble.

[Mike Whitt]

Joe

Being we were discussing the doubling of neutrals and how Stndard 67 could control the doubling of neutrals and the induction of the requirement in the NEC, wouldn't we need the information to come from the Standard before it was revised in Feb. of 2003?

Seeing how the requirement was in the 2002 code what any Standard said that was published after that date would reflect the NEC to start with.

[cduphily]

Originally Posted by Mike Whitt

Help me out Joe



Where does it say one wire per terminal?

I see that the ground bar will accept two or three #14 through #10 copper but I don't see where it says only one grounded wire per terminal, do you?

As a matter of fact the only information on the neutral is the tightening torque.

If this is a main panel as you say it is then 250.24 is going to require that the equipment grounding conductors, the grounding electrode conductor, the panel enclosure and the grounded (neutral) all be bonded togeather therefore there is no such thing as the equipment grounding terminal in this main panel. This must mean that any and all conductors connected to any and all terminal bars in this enclosure would carry the same weight.

Again I ask for some concrete danger in the installation of two neutrals under one screw except to the removal on one of the conductors while the other is energized.

Looks pretty straight forward to me.

[jtedesco1]

Originally Posted by Mike Whitt

Joe

Being we were discussing the doubling of neutrals and how Stndard 67 could control the doubling of neutrals and the induction of the requirement in the NEC, wouldn't we need the information to come from the Standard before it was revised in Feb. of 2003?

Seeing how the requirement was in the 2002 code what any Standard said that was published after that date would reflect the NEC to start with.

The pages are encrypted, and the product was provided by my employer and the following is found on each page:

Copyright Underwriters Laboratories Inc.

Provided by IHS under license with UL
No reproduction or networking permitted without license from IHS

I did post the first page earlier, and there is a UL person identified who can be contacted.

PS: I found this site and saw where the first quote is the same one you use on JLC:

http://www.cowboyway.com/CowboyQuotes.htm

"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction"

Who wrote that?

[Mike Whitt]

Originally Posted by jtedesco1

The pages are encrypted, and the product was provided by my employer and the following is found on each page:

Copyright Underwriters Laboratories Inc.

Provided by IHS under license with UL
No reproduction or networking permitted without license from IHS

I did post the first page earlier, and there is a UL person identified who can be contacted.

PS: I found this site and saw where the first quote is the same one you use on JLC:

http://www.cowboyway.com/CowboyQuotes.htm

"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction"

Who wrote that?

I don't know who was first but it is something that my Grandpa said to my Grandma all the time when I was a kid a couple of years ago.

After saying that to her he would always say, "well honey you don't look like a bull or a horse so what is left?"

At night we could hear her get even by saying, "watch your approach cause I ain't a bull or a horse."
I guess she was telling him to not approach from any direction

[Mike Whitt]

Originally Posted by cduphily

Looks pretty straight forward to me.

Can you explain the differences between the two (ground/neutral) in a main panel, please.

Edited to Continue;

The NEC defines the “grounded conductor” as a system or circuit conductor that is intentionally grounded. It also defines “grounded” as being connected to earth.

The NEC also has one Article that explains the use and identification of “Grounded Conductor”, Article 200. This conductor is required to be white or gray.

200.6 Means of Identifying Grounded Conductors.
(A) Sizes 6 AWG or Smaller. An insulated grounded conductor of 6 AWG or smaller shall be identified by a continuous white or gray outer finish or by three continuous white stripes on other than green insulation along its entire length.

Through out the entire NEC it refers to the “grounded conductor” as what we call the “neutral”

There is a whole Article in the NEC that addresses the “Grounding and Bonding, This Article is 250. Article 250 mandates that the grounding conductor be green or bare.

250.119 Identification of Equipment Grounding Conductors.
Unless required elsewhere in this Code, equipment grounding conductors shall be permitted to be bare, covered, or insulated. Individually covered or insulated equipment grounding conductors shall have a continuous outer finish that is either green or green with one or more yellow stripes except as permitted in this section

In the picture that is posted it tells us that we can have up to three copper conductors sized #10 or smaller in the “ground” bar. It does not say which of the two is to be used, ing or ed. It only says that it is connected to earth.

If we look closely at 250.142 we can clearly see that the grounded (neutral) can in fact be the grounding conductor at the service.

250.142 Use of Grounded Circuit Conductor for Grounding Equipment.
(A) Supply-Side Equipment. A grounded (neutral) circuit conductor shall be permitted to ground non–current-carrying metal parts of equipment, raceways, and other enclosures at any of the following locations:
(1) On the supply side or within the enclosure of the ac service-disconnecting means
(2) On the supply side or within the enclosure of the main disconnecting means for separate buildings as provided in 250.32(B)
(3) On the supply side or within the enclosure of the main disconnecting means or overcurrent devices of a separately derived system where permitted by 250.30(A)(1)
--- the word neutral in blue was added by me----

250.142 goes on to tell us that;
(B) Load-Side Equipment. Except as permitted in 250.30(A)(1)[ separately derived ac system ] and 250.32(B) [separate building or structure], a grounded (neutral) circuit conductor shall not be used for grounding non–current-carrying metal parts of equipment on the load side of the service disconnecting means or on the load side of a separately derived system disconnecting means or the overcurrent devices for a separately derived system not having a main disconnecting means.
---blue wording added by me for clarity---

Any where except in the service equipment the ed and ing must be keep separate but in the service equipment they both carry the same weight. Both can land on the same bar and be installed in the same manner until the adoption of the 2002 code which says;
408.41 Grounded (neutral) Conductor Terminations.
Each grounded (neutral) conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor.

It is simple to see that before the adoption of the 2002 code cycle the grounded (neutral) conductor could land as outlined in the wording on the UL label installed in the panel.
With the picture that Joe posted, should this have been the service equipment then it would have been permissible to land three grounded (neutral) conductors #10 or smaller under one screw as outlined on his label.

[cduphily]

Originally Posted by Mike Whitt

Can you explain the differences between the two (ground/neutral) in a main panel, please.

Edited to Continue;

The NEC defines the “grounded conductor” as a system or circuit conductor that is intentionally grounded. It also defines “grounded” as being connected to earth.

The NEC also has one Article that explains the use and identification of “Grounded Conductor”, Article 200. This conductor is required to be white or gray.

200.6 Means of Identifying Grounded Conductors.
(A) Sizes 6 AWG or Smaller. An insulated grounded conductor of 6 AWG or smaller shall be identified by a continuous white or gray outer finish or by three continuous white stripes on other than green insulation along its entire length.

Through out the entire NEC it refers to the “grounded conductor” as what we call the “neutral”

There is a whole Article in the NEC that addresses the “Grounding and Bonding, This Article is 250. Article 250 mandates that the grounding conductor be green or bare.

250.119 Identification of Equipment Grounding Conductors.
Unless required elsewhere in this Code, equipment grounding conductors shall be permitted to be bare, covered, or insulated. Individually covered or insulated equipment grounding conductors shall have a continuous outer finish that is either green or green with one or more yellow stripes except as permitted in this section

In the picture that is posted it tells us that we can have up to three copper conductors sized #10 or smaller in the “ground” bar. It does not say which of the two is to be used, ing or ed. It only says that it is connected to earth.

If we look closely at 250.142 we can clearly see that the grounded (neutral) can in fact be the grounding conductor at the service.

250.142 Use of Grounded Circuit Conductor for Grounding Equipment.
(A) Supply-Side Equipment. A grounded (neutral) circuit conductor shall be permitted to ground non–current-carrying metal parts of equipment, raceways, and other enclosures at any of the following locations:
(1) On the supply side or within the enclosure of the ac service-disconnecting means
(2) On the supply side or within the enclosure of the main disconnecting means for separate buildings as provided in 250.32(B)
(3) On the supply side or within the enclosure of the main disconnecting means or overcurrent devices of a separately derived system where permitted by 250.30(A)(1)
--- the word neutral in blue was added by me----

250.142 goes on to tell us that;
(B) Load-Side Equipment. Except as permitted in 250.30(A)(1)[ separately derived ac system ] and 250.32(B) [separate building or structure], a grounded (neutral) circuit conductor shall not be used for grounding non–current-carrying metal parts of equipment on the load side of the service disconnecting means or on the load side of a separately derived system disconnecting means or the overcurrent devices for a separately derived system not having a main disconnecting means.
---blue wording added by me for clarity---

Any where except in the service equipment the ed and ing must be keep separate but in the service equipment they both carry the same weight. Both can land on the same bar and be installed in the same manner until the adoption of the 2002 code which says;
408.41 Grounded (neutral) Conductor Terminations.
Each grounded (neutral) conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor.

It is simple to see that before the adoption of the 2002 code cycle the grounded (neutral) conductor could land as outlined in the wording on the UL label installed in the panel.
With the picture that Joe posted, should this have been the service equipment then it would have been permissible to land three grounded (neutral) conductors #10 or smaller under one screw as outlined on his label.

My prior post was simply stating that the panel label Joe posted clearly shows Ground bar wire size states 2 or 3 #14-#10 AWG etc.
Where as Neutral Bar Wire size makes no mention of multiple conductors telling this generalist that only ONE neutral conductor should be under each ground lug.
How many pictures like this do we have to see .... IMHO ONE is too many.

[Mike Whitt]

Originally Posted by cduphily

My prior post was simply stating that the panel label Joe posted clearly shows Ground bar wire size states 2 or 3 #14-#10 AWG etc.
Where as Neutral Bar Wire size makes no mention of multiple conductors telling this generalist that only ONE neutral conductor should be under each ground lug.
How many pictures like this do we have to see .... IMHO ONE is too many.

And what I did in my post was show that the ground bar in the service equipment can accept either what the generalist calls the neutral and the equipment grounding conductor.
If the panel that Joe posted was the service equipment the generalist could land three neutrals on the ground bar under one screw in the year that Joe's panel was installed and do it in compliance of the NEC.

The most important thing that we as professionals (the electrician, code eforcement official and the Home Inspector) are not generalist.
We are supposed to know that the neutral is the grounded conductor and as the panel pointed out the bar is for ground.

The bar did not say equipment grounding only