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  #1  
Old 2/2/09, 9:26 PM
mmurphy4 mmurphy4 is offline
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Default Neutral and Gound under same lug?

Is it acceptable to have a neutral and gounding wire under the same lug and a neutral bus bar in a main panel?
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  #2  
Old 2/2/09, 9:27 PM
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Dale Duffy Dale Duffy is offline
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Default Re: Neutral and Gound under same lug?

No it isn't Matt.....
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Old 2/2/09, 10:01 PM
mmurphy4 mmurphy4 is offline
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Default Re: Neutral and Gound under same lug?

Thats what I thought...Just wanted to make sure before I called it out!
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Old 2/3/09, 8:00 AM
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Buck Hartley, CMI Buck Hartley, CMI is offline
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Default Re: Neutral and Gound under same lug?

Dale,

Do you have a standard narrative that you use to report this defect?

Thank you.
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  #5  
Old 2/3/09, 9:50 AM
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Default Re: Neutral and Gound under same lug?

"One or more neutral wires are incorrectly connected under a single screw on the grounding or neutral bus bar at the (pick one: main panel/sub-panel), and should be serviced. (Unless the manufacturer states otherwise, bus bars are only designed for one current carrying conductor per terminating screw.)"



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Old 2/3/09, 11:11 AM
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Buck Hartley, CMI Buck Hartley, CMI is offline
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Default Re: Neutral and Gound under same lug?

Thanks! Joe.

Most SPARKY'S tell me there is nothing wrong with the neutral and ground under same lug.
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  #7  
Old 2/3/09, 11:24 AM
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Default Re: Neutral and Gound under same lug?

Heres the wording that I use:

When neutrals and grounds are bonded (connected) together, the return neutral current will split (not necessarily equally) and run on parallel paths through the grounding and neutral system back to the main panel and up the neutral to the transformer. This parallel travel can cause unbalanced conditions in the system because the current remaining in the neutral will not counterbalance the current in the hot wire. In some cases, neutral current travel on the grounding system and other metal systems, such as piping or ductwork, can be a shock hazard.



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  #8  
Old 2/3/09, 11:29 AM
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Default Re: Neutral and Gound under same lug?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mnahrgang View Post
Heres the wording that I use:

When neutrals and grounds are bonded (connected) together, the return neutral current will split (not necessarily equally) and run on parallel paths through the grounding and neutral system back to the main panel and up the neutral to the transformer. This parallel travel can cause unbalanced conditions in the system because the current remaining in the neutral will not counterbalance the current in the hot wire. In some cases, neutral current travel on the grounding system and other metal systems, such as piping or ductwork, can be a shock hazard.
Mark,

Where did that come from?

You could put the offending bonding wire on an empty terminal on the same bus and nothing would change except that it would be code compliant.

You may want to reconsider your wording.



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Old 2/3/09, 11:47 AM
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Default Re: Neutral and Gound under same lug?

Here is an illustration from the Mike Holt site.



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Old 2/3/09, 12:44 PM
Bruce M. Graham Bruce M. Graham is offline
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Default Re: Neutral and Gound under same lug?

and a video http://www.mikeholt.com/multimedia/N...LAN-smooth.ram as well as others http://www.mikeholt.com/videolist.php



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  #11  
Old 2/3/09, 2:19 PM
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William Thacker William Thacker is offline
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Default Re: Neutral and Gound under same lug?

Matthew,

The biggest problem with two wires under one screw is that the neutral might be loose, potentially causing overheating of the wire and creating a potential fire hazard.

A ground wire could be screwed right next to it. I am not sure where the "imbalance" would exist. I would choose a different narrative as well.

Bill
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  #12  
Old 2/3/09, 2:35 PM
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Christopher Currins Christopher Currins is offline
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Default Re: Neutral and Gound under same lug?

Double Tapped On Neutral Bus Bar


more than one “grounded conductor” (neutral /white) wire per screw on the neutral bus bar (double tapped/lugged) Each “grounded conductor” is supposed to have it’s very own screw on the bus bar, no other “grounded conductor” or “ungrounded conductor” (bare copper wire) should be under the screw with the “grounded conductor”.


Siemens Grounded Conductor Terminations Please note third paragraph on page 2






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  #13  
Old 2/3/09, 2:55 PM
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Default Re: Neutral and Gound under same lug?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccurrins View Post
Double Tapped On Neutral Bus Bar


more than one “grounded conductor” (neutral /white) wire per screw on the neutral bus bar (double tapped/lugged) Each “grounded conductor” is supposed to have it’s very own screw on the bus bar, no other “grounded conductor” or “ungrounded conductor” (bare copper wire) should be under the screw with the “grounded conductor”.


Siemens Grounded Conductor Terminations Please note third paragraph on page 2
An "ungrounded conductor" is a (hot) and and NOT "a bare copper wire" which is a grounding conductor.



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  #14  
Old 2/3/09, 5:26 PM
Speedy Petey Speedy Petey is offline
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Default Re: Neutral and Gound under same lug?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhartley View Post
Thanks! Joe.

Most SPARKY'S tell me there is nothing wrong with the neutral and ground under same lug.
Know that depending on your area you will come up against this quite often. This is a common practice that is done by electricians, AND accepted by inspectors in many areas. My part of NY it is very common.
I used to do this all the time (ground and neutral of the same circuit) and never once gave it a second thought. NEC 408.41 was even thought about. It never came up on a test, class or inspection.
Ten or eleven years ago, with the advent of the internet, I realized this is an issue and stopped the practice. I even questioned an inspector on it and he said it is not in the NY Resi Code so it is fine.
This changed in 2008 as this was added as Section E3606.4 in the 2007 NY Resi Code.
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