Newly installed panel box

[Greg Fretwell]

There is no requirement that the breakers need a cover as long as the wiring compartment is totally enclosed. There are many models that do not have a door.

[Greg Fretwell]

Look at the SqD catalog and you see "with door" and "without door"

http://ecatalog.squared.com/catalog/.../17301002.html

[Paul W. Abernathy]

lol..well I said I was STREECHING a bit greg........lol........I dont have my book handy and well was going off memory..lol...to be honest with you I have never in my nearly 20 years installed a panel without a door on it....so go figure.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Honestly I can't even get an image of one to question it....frankly I just dont like the idea of a residential panel in a dwelling with no access door on the front.....I am taking a stand.....Boycott Square D.....

Have you ever installed one of these greg....and while it does not have a door....maybe it is a full panel front pulloff that would be ok.....but is it not safe to say that a full covered front....screwed in with OCPD's inside is not readily accessible?

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Greg.....I dont think the DOOR is the question.....I have seen many panels 125A and down MLO and so on that simply has openings for breakers and no door.......I think we are refering to a panel with a cover on the front that has NO openings in it....simply screwed shut and no access to the OCPD's without removing the entire front cover.

Are you saying you have installed panels ( and not talking about the ones with access to the OCPD and just no hinged door ) but really no access to the OCPD's physically.......new one on me as I have not seen them but again I only deal in Residential when playing electrician and I have never seen one.

[jeffghooper]

No door needed.

III. Enclosures
240.30 General.
(A) Protection from Physical Damage. Overcurrent devices shall be protected from physical damage by one of the following:
(1) Installation in enclosures, cabinets, cutout boxes, or equipment assemblies
(2) Mounting on open-type switchboards, panelboards, or control boards that are in rooms or enclosures free from dampness and easily ignitible material and are accessible only to qualified personnel
(B) Operating Handle. The operating handle of a circuit breaker shall be permitted to be accessible without opening a door or cover.

230.92 Locked Service Overcurrent Devices.
Where the service overcurrent devices are locked or sealed or are not readily accessible to the occupant, branch-circuit overcurrent devices shall be installed on the load side, shall be mounted in a readily accessible location, and shall be of lower ampere rating than the service overcurrent device.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Man...we are not debating the door...lol....not sure where that started...we are speaking access to the OCPD's....not if their needs to be a hinged door on the panel...

BUT I have never seen a panel with NO frontal access to the OCPD's.....and no load side protection which is not stated here.

Look I have been doing this for 18 years...lol...and NEC consultant for many of that....I am aware of the enclosure issue....but in this SPECIFIC example I do not see the allowance here...

It is safe to say.....NO you cant have a "BLANK" front cover sealing the OCPD's inside based on the information given...we dont know if their are any Branch OCPD's anywhere....the question was can the panel have a front cover with no access in it..I believe...heck now I am confused...lol

I dont think in this application it is allowed based on what I am reading from the person posting this....

[Paul W. Abernathy]

OK....lets re-examine what is being asked here....cool..this is fun...ok..

"There was no door cover present, the woman who lives in the house stated no children live there, the gentleman stated that the panel is not recessed and no cover needs to be present, is this true on a new panel box install?"

Ok.....now I think Mikes first question should have been answered befire I guess we assumed and elaborated...lol.....whats that..cart and horse analogy thing...anyway..

1.) No a panel does not have to have a door on it.....but I believe it SHOULD have access to the OCPD's.....

2.) Now....230.92 does not apply here in my opinion...I hardly think the items on the load side of this panel will have their own OCPD's....atleast that is my guess...

3.) Just maybe the question was...does it have to have a door on the front which is NO....but I am sure the breakers are still accessible through the front of the panel....which is the models greg is refering to.

4.) Did we assume...or did me and MIKE assume..lol...that she was saying their was NO frontal access....remember this is a residential application now...how many electricians do YOU know who will do this to comply with 230.92 if it was sealed...lol

Ok......greg threw me a bit......yeah I have installed plenty of panels with no door on the front...thehehhe....but they always had frontal openings for OCPD's....

Now...we had some locked out and NOT readily accessible panels in some large commerical applilcations I have done..but thats a whole different ball game....

Anyway.....seeing what assuming gets...lol.......yet I am 100% sure now the question was.....does the front need a DOOR with hindge...lol...and not that the panel is sealed up....now that I look at it....lol

BTW- I would STILL say it was wrong if it was a panel with OCPD's inside and no frontal access to it........

[Greg Fretwell]

The breaker handles are out in the open. No door over them. I think that is what she was talking about. Usually I see these as surface type covers while flush covers usually have the door.

[Greg Fretwell]

This kind of thing

[Paul W. Abernathy]

yeah..yeah....lol........I was looking for a pic....

I think me and mike thought she was saying their was NO access on the front....just OCPD's in a box with a cover on it....lol..I know...I KNOW greg....dont yell at me fella....been a lONG day...lol

most of those I see are surface mount as well

[jeffghooper]

OK Paul,

But back to what you were looking for even if it did not pertain to the question, here it is with different bold. If you are an electrical consultant, and I believe you are, you know the definition of readily or ready, right. No LOL involved, don't find it funny.

240.24 Location in or on Premises.
(A) Accessibility. Overcurrent devices shall be readily accessible unless one of the following applies:
(1) For busways, as provided in 368.12.
(2) For supplementary overcurrent protection, as described in 240.10.
(3) For overcurrent devices, as described in 225.40 and 230.92.
(4) For overcurrent devices adjacent to utilization equipment that they supply, access shall be permitted to be by portable means.
(B) Occupancy. Each occupant shall have ready access to all overcurrent devices protecting the conductors supplying that occupancy.


240.30 General.
(A) Protection from Physical Damage. Overcurrent devices shall be protected from physical damage by one of the following:
(1) Installation in enclosures, cabinets, cutout boxes, or equipment assemblies
(2) Mounting on open-type switchboards, panelboards, or control boards that are in rooms or enclosures free from dampness and easily ignitible material and are accessible only to qualified personnel
(B) Operating Handle. The operating handle of a circuit breaker shall be permitted to be accessible without opening a door or cover.

(with edit, see you are right.)

BTW- I would STILL say it was wrong if it was a panel with OCPD's inside and no frontal access to it........

[jeffghooper]

For the others,

Accessible (as applied to equipment). Admitting close approach; not guarded by locked doors, elevation, or other effective means.

Accessible (as applied to wiring methods). Capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building.

Accessible, Readily (Readily Accessible). Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite to climb over or remove obstacles or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Oh yeah......trust me I get PAID for what I do Jeff...

Accessible, Readily = Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite to climb over or remove obstancles or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth.

NEC Handbook Notes = The definitino of readily accessible does not preclude the use of a locked door for service equipment or rooms containing service equipment, provided those for whom ready access in necessary have a KEY ( or lock combination) available.

Example : 230.70(A)(1) and 230.205(A) require service disconnecting means to be readily accessible. Section 225.32 requires that feeder disconnecting means for separate buildings be readily accessible. A commonly used, permitted practice is to locate the disconnection means in the electrical equipment room of an office building or large apartment building to keep the door to that room locked to prevent access by un authorized persons.

Section 240.24(A) requires that overcurrent devices be SO located to be readily accessible.

SO.....tell me grasshopper........having a panel with a BLANK front on it with OCPD's located inside and screwed SHUT is readily accessible to the home owner who MUST have access to the OCPD's in case of emergency?

[jeffghooper]

I believe I have already answered that.

Let me be more specific.

NO.

It requires disassembly and tools. When there are conflicts in codes, the more stringent shall prevail. Section Section 225.32 is specific to disconnection means, Section 240.24(A) is specific to OCPD's. Not necessarily in the same location of the disconnect, or service equipment, right?

Oh, and you bet I get paid. I just do not advertise what I am or what I do at the bottom of every post. My seminars are NOT free and start at 3K a day.