No AFCI In New Home

[rromoser]

We Hoosiers have deleted AFCI's in the Indiana IRC amendments for 2005

[jmichalski]

Originally Posted by rgant

The house was built in Feb. 2006 and has never been occupied. There are no AFCI's for the bedrooms. The house resides in Cherokee Co., OK which has no electrical inspector. Cherokee Co. follows what the state of OK has adopted, which has adopted NEC 2005.

What is wrong with reporting what you wrote there? It shows that you identified a potnetial issue, and that (having some familiarity with AFCIs being required in some jurisdictions, you went the extra mile to define what the prevailing code is. Attaching the appropriate portion of the NEC would also be helpful.

If you disclaim in your agreement and in your report that while you may refer to codes and other standards for purposes of illustration and background information, you are not performing a code inspection - I don't see the big deal about mentioning codes.

Still, if you are hesitant, use the euphamism "current building and safety standards" in place of code and you get the same effect.....

[jmichalski]

Originally Posted by tdietrich1

You can recommend AFCI's installed, but before you make the statement that they ARE required, check with your state's position.

I was told, NJ and NY adopted current versions of the NEC, but have amended the AFCI's as optional.

tom

I cannot speak for Y, but that is accurate in NJ.

[tdietrich1]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

What do you expect from a state that has no state licensing anyway

Man you cut deep. Pa has no state licensing, and a positive effect of that is less bureaucracy, which leads towards us adopting the NEC the same year it comes out, and the ICC/IRC the same year too.

NJ has state licensing, and I was told AFCI's aren't required and it's been in the NEC for how many cycles?

tom

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Originally Posted by tdietrich1

Man you cut deep. Pa has no state licensing, and a positive effect of that is less bureaucracy, which leads towards us adopting the NEC the same year it comes out, and the ICC/IRC the same year too.

NJ has state licensing, and I was told AFCI's aren't required and it's been in the NEC for how many cycles?

tom

Yeah...but HOFFA is also somewhere buried in Jersey as well.

Well I ain't braggin on VA either fella......takes VA 3 years to just adopt a code cycle because they read it over and over and over and over....and then finally adopt it.

Less bureaucracy.....heck if I would want to have to get a little community license in every county.....been their...done that back in the late 80's and early 90's before the DPOR took over in VA.....then it went statewide.

Heck I had to lobby for CEU requirements in VA and they gave us only 3 hours of CODE...heck it's hard to cover sizing a service in 3 hours for some people but thats all they required I guess.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

FYI....usually New Jersey adopts the code cycle about a year after it is out but thats fairly fast....I wish VA was like that.

But in truth I like PA and will be giong their in a few weeks on personal business so heck...I am likin PA..

[David A. Andersen]

How do we do it without citing the dirty word...CODE ?

Don't hit the C-O-D-E keys on your keyboard!

You NEVER have to say in any report, what is "Required", just that it is not there. The Electrical Code is not a law! Who are we to enforce anything?

EDUCATION is what we do.

[Barry Adair]

Try adding interactive statements like this, removes all doubt, educates and allows them to make an informed decision, what they hired us to do:

AFCI information

[Greg Fretwell]

The electric code becomes a law as soon as it is adopted by the building department.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

greg is very right...

having jurisdiction shall result in each day that such
violation continues being regarded as a new and separate
offense.

(B) Penalties.

(1) Any person who fails to comply with the provisions of
this

Code or who fails to carry out an order made pursuant
to this Code or violates any condition attached to
a permit, approval, or certificate shall be subject to the
penalties established by this jurisdiction.

(2) Failure to comply with the time limits of an abatement
notice or other corrective notice issued by the authority

3) Any person,

firm, or corporation who shall willfully
violate any of the applicable provisions of this article
shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction
thereof, shall be punished by a fine of not less than
_____dollars ($_____) or more than _______dollars
($_____) for each offense, together with the costs of
prosecution, imprisonment, or both, for not less than
___________(_________) days or more than _______
(______) days.


So now your local government will fill in the BLANKS for you upon a violation of the adopted CODE.
P.S. For those communities that HAVE adopted the NEC Code...not thos states who have no idea what they are adopting...lol...sorry TOM

[tdietrich1]

I'm sure in the adaptation of the NEC, there are provisions to omit, modify, and make more restrictive any parts of the code.

As for me, I see it as customer education. Even if a home was built prior to 1999, I make the suggestion of including AFCI's as a plan upgrade in the future.

But that is me, I'm known as a worry-wart.

tom

[cbellefontaine]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

snip - I do not believe they need to be beyond the bedroom - snip

I think eventually all outlets will protect against ground faults and arc faults. But I am curious why you feel they do not need to be beyond the bedrooms.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Sure charles...you know me I can ramble on for hours...

Basically, this is my opinion as many "Electricians" feel AFCI's are not needed at all but my feeling is they hit the nail on the head with regards to the added protection in areas that the client is "LESS" aware of while in a sleeping state.

Statics I have seen ( I will have to dig them up ) that nearly 60 % of all house fires start in the bedroom, now while we probably can't stop these fires we can make a strive to save lives at the cost of $ 50.00 and again small price to pay IF they save a life and ONE life is worth it to me.

Now many will say their is no proof that AFCI's work but I put my trust in the NFPA board and their choices, they certainly have eveidence that they feel it saves lives or will save lives and I refuse to think it is a lobby issue only.

Now will AFCI's protect the house in other locations, yes it could but I do not put property over life and lives saved so nothing NOW prevents a person from putting AFCI's on all the 15-20A 120V circuits in the house which has to be an option and I like that as an option but very soon the NFPA may pass that AFCI's be on all 120V 15/20A branch circuits and if this happens I will gladly comply as I put my trust as a professional electrician in this board.

Now do I worry about companies like Sq D and CH making money on them, well thats the American way and in the end they make plenty of money that I dont think added sales of AFCI's will make or break them.

I like the mandate on the bedrooms and voluntary on other areas because if my house burns down today i will recover but if i am sleeping or my child is sleeping and a situation a AFCI can prevent happens then I may just save my childs life.....so having them on all of the 120V 15-20A branch circuits will be even safer it still does nothing against circuits OVER that line....

Charles I don't hold those cards, it is simply my opinion that as it stands right now we are protecting the circuit that most quickly can effect the lives of our family and my arguement is now I like how it is written now and again changes and additions are enhancements and I will follow them as they pass them down.........but I am VERY happy with how it is right now versus many saying get rid of AFCI's all together.

I think that is actually what i was trying to say....

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Charles....would you like to know what I think the future will bring. IF anyone would like to know just ask and I will give you what I think will happen in a few years as the NFPA is positioning itself for this in MY OPINION.

[cbellefontaine]

You know I would. Don't tease me like that.

FWIW - I have been a firefighter for 26 years now. I still work full time in Northbrook, IL. Home of UL. I always enjoy your passionate post. I am not allowed to give you anymore positive feedback when I press your star. I am going to share that it is the smoke that kills people in house fires. I too like the AFCIs and the GFCIs. I personally think they should be on all branch circuits. IMHO, the bedrooms are just the beginning. People get used to everything as time goes on. I remember complaining about wearing rubber gloves when we started IVs on people. I even complained about wearing seatbelts. I must be getting old.