No GFCI in Bathroom

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

Originally Posted by kkenny

Kicked off again! Seems like someone doesn't want me to reply.

I got kicked off somehow so i have to rewrite this, so if i am rehashing something someone else already said i'm sorry.

Our clients hire us for our knowledge and accept our opinions, especially on safety issues. As professionals we have to report the lack of GFCI's and AFCI's and I believe it is our responsibility to ensure our clients realize the serious safety issue involved; however, we would be overstepping our bounds to say that the situation requires immediate repair or replacement. The really is no violation (as long as its not FHA).

At our recent Chapter meeting here in Chicago, we had a members of IBEW local 701 conduct a presentation to our members. One of the electricians, an apprentice instructor on codes and a recent member of the national electrical code board, stated he owned an @100 year old house and doesn't have a GFCI in it. My best friend is a 25 year IBEW electrician and when his house was built kitchen counters didnot require GFCI's, he still does not have GFCI's on the kitchen counters.

There are many opines on this subject. This is just mine.

Kevin

Required or not I want to not have to defend my self in Court .
If some one gets hurt or worse and I am trying to tell the judge the place was built and did not require a GFCI.
Roy Cooke

[Craig P. Lennox, CMIA]

This is definately an interesting debate.

From a life safety standpoint ,yes there should always be a GFCI receptacle in place if it is near a water source...bathroom, kitchens whatever the case may be and they are required in all new construction and renovations. But the codes do have a stipulation, in that, if an area has not been renovated it does not have to meet current codes in residential construction. This stipulation in the code is the HI's cya statement.

I personally feel that we as HIs should list this deficiency in any home and call attention to it, but to make it a must repair deficiency is a step too far. Give the client the knowledge, which is why we're there and they won't be able to come back at you. You've identified a potential problem, told them why it could be a problem, recommended a solution and let them decide on a course of action.

[Brian E. Kelly]

The outlets should be upgraded to have ground-fault protection.

No brainer

[Speedy Petey]

Originally Posted by rcooke

Required or not I want to not have to defend my self in Court .
If some one gets hurt or worse and I am trying to tell the judge the place was built and did not require a GFCI.

Roy, this is not an attack, just a simple question.
In several posts in this thread alone, and in countelss other replies I have read, you continually refer to staying out of court, defending yourself in court, telling the judge, being liable, etc.
I know you say this is all about keeing your customers safe, but from the sound of your posts it is more about keeping Roy out of court.
If you are so deathly afraid of what could happen, or having to go to court, why are you in a trade that has ANY liability at all???

[jtedesco1]

Relocated to IRC thread

[nbhi]

Is it a requirement for the seller to upgrade to GFCI, AFCI, prior to putting their home on the market? I have not heard of any requirements in this area. Again, point it out as a safety issue. Just my 2 cents.

Recommend that outlets be upgraded to a 3 prong AFCI, GFCI, grounded outlet for safety when economically feasible.

Rgards

Gary

[Speedy Petey]

Joe T., I think you posted this in the wrong thread.
I think you wanted the "IRC?" thread.

[Erby Crofutt]

Our job is not to require anything, but to educate and inform our clients so that they can make an educated decision about the topics we are educating them on.

As such, I tell 'em this:
============================

Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI) protection may not have been required when this house was constructed, however, I recommend that all outlets needing ground fault protection, as recognized by the newest national safety standards (see below) be upgraded to GFCI for the protection of you and your family. Only you can decide what level of risk you (and your family) want to live with. I recommend that this upgrade be completed by a licensed electrician.

Review this internet link for further information on how GFCI work and why they are a recommended safety upgrade. http://www.doityourself.com/stry/gfci

FYI: The following dates indicate when nationally accepted minimum safety standards required GFCI protection. The local minimum safety standards may have adopted this protection at an earlier or later date.
DATES GFCI REQUIRMENTS WERE ESTABLISHED:
1971 Receptacles within 15 feet of pool walls
1971 All equipment used with storable swimming pools
1973 All outdoor receptacles
1974 Construction Sites
1975 Bathrooms, 120-volt pool lights, and fountain equipment
1978 Garages, spas, and hydromassage tubs
1978 Outdoor receptacles above 6ft.6in. grade access exempted
1984 Replacement of non-grounding receptacles with no grounding conductor allowed
1984 Pool cover motors
1984 Distance of GFCI protection extended to 20 feet from pool walls
1987 Unfinished basements
1987 Kitchen countertop receptacles within 6 feet of sink
1987 Boathouses
1990 Crawlspaces (with exception for sump pumps or other dedicated equip.)
1993 Wet bar countertops within 6 feet of sink
1993 Any receptacle replaced in an area presently requiring GFCI
1996 All kitchen counters – not just those within 6 feet of sink
1996 All exterior receptacles except dedicated de-icing tape receptacle
1996 Unfinished accessory buildings at or below grade
1999 Exemption for dedicated equipment in crawlspace removed

[Barry Adair]

I'll stick with TREC SOP; required statewide (bold is mine)

(c) Branch circuits, connected devices and fixtures. The inspector shall report as in need of repair,replacement, or installation:


(G) ground fault circuit interrupter devices are not properly installed as set forth by the current edition of the National Electric Code, publication 70A of the National Fire Protection Association, or do not operate properly as shown by use of a separate testing device;

[jtedesco1]

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey

Joe T., I think you posted this in the wrong thread.
I think you wanted the "IRC?" thread.

Excuse Me! Wiil relocate

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey

Roy, this is not an attack, just a simple question.
In several posts in this thread alone, and in countelss other replies I have read, you continually refer to staying out of court, defending yourself in court, telling the judge, being liable, etc.
I know you say this is all about keeing your customers safe, but from the sound of your posts it is more about keeping Roy out of court.
If you are so deathly afraid of what could happen, or having to go to court, why are you in a trade that has ANY liability at all???

It is not for me It is for all Home Inspectors so they do not become sloppy and do things that can get them In court .
I have seen home Inspection Insurance go from $800.00 with a $1,000;00 deductable to well over $5,000:00 with $10,000;00 deductable for some Home Inspectors
The Insurance companies have also added many disclaimers on what the do not give insurance for .
It has got so bad many inspectors no longer carry insurance.
There is much information traded in the members only section that you do not see.
I have never had a claim or been threatened and do my best for all to do the same .
I also really enjoy my work and by the many reports I get from my clients and referrals they too are very happy with my inspections.
I also get regularly asked to speak to public groups.
This is also spoken on regularly at various meeting on Avoiding Litigation.
At the Florida Convention there was continuing running seminars on this subject.
The realestate associations also run seminars on this on a continuing basis.
Unfortunately it has become a very serious part of our profession and has put a large amount of successful HIs out of business.
Added if you go too http://www.nachi.org/forum/f21/well-chlorination-pros-and-cons-6077/ on wells it also talks about litigation . this is a continuing discusion with Home Inspectors.
Roy Cooke

[David A. Andersen]

I have not said anywhere that we should not report on GFCI. It is such a problem, I could put it in my report as boiler plate and would have to remove it from the report less than adding it.

I go beyond GFCI. I am now taking on the "Voltage Drop" issue in new construction which is not required, but just a recommendation in the code.

Still, I do not enforce the repair or upgrade. I educate the client and the general contractor concerning what the sud-electrical contractor is producing.

The point, Just report the condition. Leave it up to the client to decide what is to be done.

Mr. Cook, I too noticed a lot of "Stay out of court" in your posts. I have one comment, based from the number of times I have been in court (criminal investigator for 13 years). There is little you can do or say to stay out of court! You will end up there if you deserve to be there or not. If someone dies in a house due to neglect, you will be in court weather you have anything to do with it or not.

Demanding repairs because you may end up in court is not a good basis. You are correct, the lawyers will say that you were downplaying the urgency of this issue. But they will do that no matter what you said!
I was accused of "downplaying" an inspection in court. That was until the defence lawyers produced an original copy of the report which was 90% RED. All the court copies were B&W photocopies. You didn't even have to read the report to get a sense of urgency from my report! I was still in court though!

Do a good job covering and locating everything you can. That is the only thing that will save you in court. It will not keep you out of the court however. (I am talking USA now, I don't know Canadian courts).

Thoes of us that must report things for the State, report what you must.
But if you look at it again, they do not say that upgrades must be ordered. You just must inspect and report on the issue.

In my state we must report on the incoming electrical conductor material. That's it. Not size, capacity, condition... Just Alu or Copper. Why?
Ours is not to question why, just report it.
What differance does it make what it is made out of if it is properly sized? Maybe they are conducting a survey at our expence.