Phase coupler

[Marc D. Shunk]

Originally Posted by jtedesco1

Again, no. This time I have an email message from this company supporting my previous reply.

Doesn't matter what they say in an email. All you can go by is the documentation.

I'd bet my bottom dollar that the manufacturer never intended for these phase couplers to be mounted in the panel, and I'll bet they don't even like it one bit. Their documentation, as written, does not prohibit this installation.

[jtedesco1]

Originally Posted by Marc D. Shunk

Doesn't matter what they say in an email. All you can go by is the documentation.

I'd bet my bottom dollar that the manufacturer never intended for these phase couplers to be mounted in the panel, and I'll bet they don't even like it one bit. Their documentation, as written, does not prohibit this installation.

I received permission from the company to post the first message as follows:

"Joe -

The product is not installed to the National Electrical standards. It should be mounted in a Junction box out side of the Main breaker panel with the connections made in that box and then wired into the Main panel.

I have attached the installation manual for your records.

Will it work. the answer is yes. PCS builds these items with a plastic enclosure because we know what the installers do in the field.

Who installed this item for you?

Regards,

Scott Klodowski
Director of Sales & Marketing
Powerline Control Systems, Inc.

P: 818.701.9831 ext. 105
F: 818.701.1506
C: 562.506.7046

Scottk@pcslighting.com
www.pcslighting.com

This e-mail and any attachment are intended for the above named recipient(s) only and may contain confidential or privileged information. If you are not an intended recipient, please notify the sender and delete the message. Failure to maintain the confidentiality of this e-mail and any attachment may subject you to penalties under applicable law."

I would stand behind this and avoid the embarrassment in a court of law!

[Marc D. Shunk]

What they said in the email is exactly what I fully expected they'd say. The fact remains that this installation is not expressly prohibited by the manufacturer's instructions, and the NEC does not prohibit things other than the actual panelboard to be mounted in a panelbaord cabinet as long as long as the gutter fill is not exceeded. Unusual installations always strike people as "wrong", and this one is unusual. I would call it wrong from the standpoint that I wouldn't do it, but still not illegal or non-compliant. The panelboard cabinet is still an enclosure. Remember, it's only residential "loadcenters" that package all three pieces in one convenient package for installation. The panelboard (the guts), the cabinet, and the cover are three distinct pieces. They are ordered seperately for commercial work. It's only resi panels that come all put together. You could just as easily use a panelboard cabinet (no guts inside) as a cutout box (junction box with hinged cover) if you wanted to. If you happen to have a also have the panelboard itself mounted in a panelboard cabinet, that's no reason to prohibit other devices in the panelboard cabinet. The NEC certainly gives no reason, save for max gutter fill.

I still say: dumb, but legal.

I think the better thing to do would be to educate the manufacturer to the fact that a panelboard cabinet is still an "enclosure" in the truest sense of the word so that they might reword their documentation to reflect what they intend.

[Mike Whitt]

After looking at some Eaton panels at the NC Electrical Institute today I looked up this on their web site. Can someone tell me what that is in the bottom of that panel?

Click here

[Jim Port]

Mike,

Looks like it might be surge protection.

[Mike Whitt]

Originally Posted by Jim Port

Mike,

Looks like it might be surge protection.

Yes that is just what it is and it is installed in the CH panel and posted on the Eaton web site so the whole world can see.

[Greg Fretwell]

If this is part of the listed assembly or was evaluated in the assembly by a NRTL I doubt anyone could have a problem with it ... except maybe inspect-ny

[Marc D. Shunk]

Originally Posted by Greg Fretwell

If this is part of the listed assembly or was evaluated in the assembly by a NRTL I doubt anyone could have a problem with it ... except maybe inspect-ny

Panelboards that come preinstalled in panelboard cabinets are not investigated as an assembly. You could mount a panelboard in almost any kind of box you felt like, in much the same way you may mount other things in the leftover space inside a panelboard cabinet.

PowerLogic panelboards have lots of extra knick-nacks that you mount inside the panelboard cabinet. There is a manufacturer not making a motor-operated automatic transfer switch for Square D panels that has a "brain box" you mount inside the panel. The list goes on and on...

[Mike Whitt]

Marc

If this phase coupler or any other device was installed on the inside of a junction box such as a 4 square, how would you calculate the volume fill of that box?
Would the volume fill outlined in 314.16 still apply to this box that held a device such as this?
I know for such things such as receptacles and switches that a double volume would be counted but these devices mount to the box not inside the box. With the new rule in the 2008 code it is clear that these devices are mounted to the box instead of inside the box due to the new rule to add twice the volume for devices that have four mounting holes such as dryer and range receptacles.

What do you think about this?

[Marc D. Shunk]

Originally Posted by Mike Whitt

Marc

If this phase coupler or any other device was installed on the inside of a junction box such as a 4 square, how would you calculate the volume fill of that box?

My opinion, the code is mute on that matter, so only the conductors need considered in that box fill calc. As we know, things like dimmers and GFCI's take up lots of room in a box too, but there's no special code-required box fill considerations for those either. Code wise, seems like if that phase coupler physically fit, one would have to accept it.

[Greg Fretwell]

I would just call it a device and it counts 2 same as a dimmer or GFCI

[jtedesco1]

2. Install the coupler into a suitable workbox or equivalent enclosure using the two mounting holes.

[Marc D. Shunk]

Originally Posted by jtedesco1

2. Install the coupler into a suitable workbox or equivalent enclosure using the two mounting holes.

Okay, so they didn't use the mounting holes. I'll give you that. This is all that a guy could rightfully have a problem with.

[jtedesco1]

Mark:

Do you have to take out electrical permits in your area, and do you get your electrical inspections by the cities, or by 3rd party inspection agencies there?

Does PA require that electricians be licensed yet?

[Marc D. Shunk]

Originally Posted by jtedesco1

Do you have to take out electrical permits in your area, and do you get your electrical inspections by the cities, or by 3rd party inspection agencies there?

Does PA require that electricians be licensed yet?

Do you always ask questions you already know the answer to, or just on special occasions?

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I have to deal with more licensing authorities, more inspection agencies (governmental and otherwise), and more places to pull permits from than a man really ought to have to deal with. Sort of along the lines of what the orange guy from the windy city describes.