Red & balck @ breaker

[David C. Macy]

Are the red & black connection at the breaker an acceptable electrical connection? This would be the 4th one from the bottom.


And for the sake of me not remebering what is the problem when the nuetral & ground are attached at the same screw on the bar? Does it really make a difference seperating the nuetral & ground on seperte screws?

[Peter Doane]

From what I understand in your question, so I may be wrong.

(1)Red and/or black wire to a circuit breaker is ok. Double-pole breakers are connected with both a red and black wire; single-pole breakers (in most installations) are connected with just the black wire. Red and black both represent a hot leg. Usually you see them connected to a double 220v breaker meaning that the breaker actually connects to both bus bars in the panel. *Looks like you have a double tap breaker in the first picture also.

(2) The doubling up of neutrals (white wires) on a terminal lug (buss) bar has been a violation going back to the Standard 67 of the UL and has been required by many panel manufacturers. Correction is recommended for electrical safety.

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

If you're referring to the double-tap at the breaker terminal, no, it's not okay.

[Marc D. Shunk]

Originally Posted by jpope

If you're referring to the double-tap at the breaker terminal, no, it's not okay.

That's a Cutler-Hammer "CH" breaker. They're okay for a double-tap, but I don't personally like the practice.

[Blaine Wiley]

Our AHJ will not pass that breaker with a double tap.

[David C. Macy]

I need to learn to spell.

Balck

Thanks for the response

[Marc D. Shunk]

Originally Posted by bwiley

Our AHJ will not pass that breaker with a double tap.

Then your AHJ needs to bone up a bit on what exactly it is he's enforcing.

[rwand1]

Up in Ontario double taps are not okay unless its a Square D breaker, last time I checked with our Electrical Safety Authority that was the rule, they are the only approved breaker for double taps. But having said that the Electrical Authority inspectors have routinely accepted double tapped Stab-loks where a door bell transformer and 14 ga circuit are used. Contrary to their own rules fwiw.

[Speedy Petey]

Originally Posted by rwand1

...they are the only approved breaker for double taps.

Definitely false! Some C-H "CH Series" breakers DO legally accept two conductors, as Marc pointed out. There are others as well but QO & CH are very well known for this.

[rwand1]

Speedy

I am only going by what I have been told by our ESA inspector. I realize its possible to put two wires of the same guage under the terminal screw of other breakers but ESA has stated its the only approved breaker (Sq D) they will accept for double lugging fwiw. It is also uncommon at least in my area to see anything but Stab-lok and the occassional Square D panel in newer housing.

[Marc D. Shunk]

Originally Posted by rwand1

I am only going by what I have been told by our ESA inspector.

Then your inspector is also plainly wrong. I've had the Ontario Code on CD for a long time, and I just reviewed it again. There's nothing of the sort in that document. Cutler-Hammer CH breakers bear the CSA and the cUL mark also.

[rwand1]

Marc,

I had it in writing from the ESA so I can only base my comments on what they wrote in an email. Aren't all breakers certified by CSA and CUL? Does it say in the Ontario code double taps are permitted or which breakers are certified for double tapping?

[Marc D. Shunk]

Originally Posted by rwand1

Does it say in the Ontario code double taps are permitted or which breakers are certified for double tapping?

Of course not, which is why it's permitted if the manufacturer permits it.

Would you mind CC'ing that email here:

[rwand1]

http://www.nachi.org/forum/archive/i...hp/t-2527.html

3/29/06, 5:52 PM

Received an answer from ESA re double taps. Here is the response for your your files and knowledge base, as if we are not already on information overload.

I am answering your question by splitting it into two questions.

1. Does the code prevent terminating two conductors to a single branch circuit breaker?


The code does not prevent connecting two conductors to a single branch circuit breaker provided that the breaker is approved for that purpose. As you suggest, the Square D 15 - 30 amp single pole Type QO breaker is approved for the termination of two conductors.

2. Does the code prevent using a branch circuit panelboard enclosure as a junction box or a raceway?

The code states that the enclosure shall be permitted to be used as a junction box if wiring is being added to an enclosure forming part of an existing installation and the conductors, splices and taps do not fill the wiring space at any cross-section to more than 75% of the cross-sectional area of the space.

Ontario Electrical Safety Code Rules 2-034, 12-3034.


Code Specialist
Electrical Safety Authority

ESA encourages the use of Licensed Electrical Contractors.
All electrical work requires a Certificate of Inspection from the Electrical Safety Authority.

>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<


Original question:
comments: Two weeks ago I sent a question in via this contact form. I never did receive a response to question lett alone an receipt that this contact form was receive.


My original question was regarding double taps in residential electrical panels, whether they are permitted or not. The ESCode states they are not, but I have been seeing many double taps and there has been a ESA sticker on the panel. I am also aware that Square D breakers allow two wires, but what is ESA opinion?


Thank you.
Raymond Wand

[William J. Decker]

Originally Posted by Marc D. Shunk

Then your AHJ needs to bone up a bit on what exactly it is he's enforcing.

Good point.

The local AHJs enforce local codes (which are not always in accordance with the national codes (which, in themselves, have no force of law).

Not to start an argument, but we have to remember (not being local code enforcers) that the local AHJ code requiremements are, usually, pretty crazy.

They are not (usually) up to date, are more a political document that a technical one and are 'enforced' by guys who only spend about 10 - 15 minutes on site. (Not to slam them, they are only allowed that time, being overworked as they are).

This is what home inspectors usually run into. Being in the middle of the local guys, the national codes and the local contractors and realtors. We are confused, but we have to try to explain this messed up system to the client.

What a job.