Remote distribution panel or subpanel?

[rwilcox]

This panel is in a workshop next to house and is fed by 3 conductor feeder from a 40amp breaker in main panel. Is this a amateur electrician home owners attempt at a subpanel (obviously done totally wrong) or can this be a Remote distribution panel done by an electrician? This is my first picture upload so hopefully it works.

[brian winkle]

Is the workshop detached?

[rwilcox]

Yes, the workshop is detached.

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

It's a "panel" or "panelboard." Call it an electrical panel, load side panel, distribution panel, equipment panel, remote panel - whatever. The point is, it is not "service" equipment, and that's all that really matters.

I know subpanel is a fairly common term, but it is not recognized by the NEC, and if you read through the electrical forum, you'll see where it leads to a large amount of confusion, especially with newer inspectors.

There is "service" equipment and then there is "other" equipment.

[David P. Valley]

What's up with the grounds?

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

Originally Posted by dvalley

What's up with the grounds?

Are you referring to the fact that they're attached to the neutral bus?

[Marc D. Shunk]

If this is a deteched structure, and there are no other metallic paths between the house and the detached structure (phone lines, metal water lines, etc.), then it is permissible to feed that panel with 3-wire.

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

Originally Posted by Marc D. Shunk

If this is a deteched structure, and there are no other metallic paths between the house and the detached structure (phone lines, metal water lines, etc.), then it is permissible to feed that panel with 3-wire.

But the grounding bus would still be required to be bonded to the enclosure.

Also, with strict interpretation of the code, the disconnect for that panel would be required to disconnect all three conductors (H-H-N) in a 3-wire feed.

It's easier (acting as a home inspector) to simply defer a 3-wire feed to a load side panel, and let the sparky make the call.

[Marc D. Shunk]

Originally Posted by jpope

But ...

Also, ....

I was only addressing one matter, which was the 3-wire feeder. In the past, when I've addressed the entire photograph, I get blasted for providing too much information. Now, I only address one portion, and I get "but... also...". I have no idea which set of rules to follow.

[rwilcox]

OK Jeff I think I understand. Let me try to ask this question another way. Is there anything wrong with this panel being supplied by a 3 wire conductor from another panel? I think the neutral ground conductors and the grounding conductors should be isolated in this workshop panel and a fourth conductor (a dedicated grounding conductor) should have been ran to this workshop panel from the main panel and I think this workshop panel should also have its on grounded electrode. Help me out me, am I correct? I hope I my terminology is correct.

[Marc D. Shunk]

Originally Posted by rwilcox

Is there anything wrong with this panel being supplied by a 3 wire conductor from another panel? .

I dont' care if you're addressing Jeff directly or not. If it's a detached structure with no other metallic paths, 3-wire is legal.

[rwilcox]

Take a chill pill Marc, This is an open discussion to all knowageble inspectors. Thank you for your opinion.

[Greg Fretwell]

Jeff, why would you need to open the neutral on a feeder disconnect?

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

It can be difficult to verify "no other metallic path." That's why I say defer a 3-wire feed.

In your picture, it's wrong, no matter what. If it's a proper 3-wire feed, that G/N bus needs to be bonded to the enclosure. Also, it does not appear that there is a grounding electrode (rod/pipe) for that panel, which would be required in either case.

The disconnecting means for that panel (in a 3-wire feed) should disconnect all three conductors - essentially, a three-pole breaker or switch.

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

Originally Posted by Greg Fretwell

Jeff, why would you need to open the neutral on a feeder disconnect?

That's how I interpret the code section that allows for a 3-wire feed. I don't have it in front of me (I'm getting ready to start an inspection), but I'll post it later if nobody else does.