Repairs made by a LICENCED electrician

[Marc D. Shunk]

Originally Posted by cduphily

Pete, those photos where of work completed by a licensed electrician.

He might have had a driver's license, but I'd be curious to know what other license he claims to have.

As has been pointed out, PA has no statewide license, and all the licensing (where it exists) is done on a local level. For most of the state, you can take a Crayola and write on the side of your station wagon "Lektrickle Kontractor". Seems like this joker might have been in that group. Yes, file that one under "Y".

[William J. Decker]

I would be interested in hearing from some sparkys on this one.

Inspectors usually include such verbiage as "recommend evaluation and repair by a licensed and insured electrical contractor" (my verbiage) or some such.

Who do other professional electricians, and by different areas, understand this to mean.

Union (IBEW) trained journeymen?
State license (different states will have different requirements)
locl business license

What are your standards?

[jtedesco1]

Originally Posted by wdecker

I would be interested in hearing from some sparkys on this one.

Inspectors usually include such verbiage as "recommend evaluation and repair by a licensed and insured electrical contractor" (my verbiage) or some such.

Who do other professional electricians, and by different areas, understand this to mean.

Union (IBEW) trained journeymen?
State license (different states will have different requirements)
locl business license

What are your standards?

First, they must be qualfied persons and if licensing is required they should be able to secure a permit. Here in MA the journeyman can do that and for each renewal of licenses they have to get 21 hours of update training.

[Speedy Petey]

Unfortunately in NY and PA (the two I know for sure) it means absolutely nothing. There is NO standard other than local requirements in SOME areas.

[Joseph Hagarty, CMI]

Originally Posted by wdecker

I would be interested in hearing from some sparkys on this one.

Inspectors usually include such verbiage as "recommend evaluation and repair by a licensed and insured electrical contractor" (my verbiage) or some such.

Who do other professional electricians, and by different areas, understand this to mean.

Union (IBEW) trained journeymen?
State license (different states will have different requirements)
locl business license

What are your standards?

I don't defer to "Licensed Contractors" are there really is no such thing in PA. I only recommend "Qualified and Experienced Contractors".

[William J. Decker]

Originally Posted by jtedesco1

First, they must be qualfied persons and if licensing is required they should be able to secure a permit. Here in MA the journeyman can do that and for each renewal of licenses they have to get 21 hours of update training.

I think that that is my question, Joe. What does qualified mean?

How can the public be sure that their electrician is good.

Does he do a quality job, of just work to meet the bare minimum of local codes?

How can the public be sure?

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

Originally Posted by wdecker

I would be interested in hearing from some sparkys on this one.

Inspectors usually include such verbiage as "recommend evaluation and repair by a licensed and insured electrical contractor" (my verbiage) or some such.

Who do other professional electricians, and by different areas, understand this to mean.

Union (IBEW) trained journeymen?
State license (different states will have different requirements)
locl business license

What are your standards?

I like to KISS..
( Immediate repair by qualified Person )
This covers me in all cases

I wonder why some have long sentences to say some thing simple.

Move on to the next part of the inspection.

...Cookie

[Joseph Hagarty, CMI]

Originally Posted by wdecker

I think that that is my question, Joe. What does qualified mean?

How can the public be sure that their electrician is good.

Does he do a quality job, of just work to meet the bare minimum of local codes?

How can the public be sure?

Will,

PA does not License Contractors. Never has and most likely never will.

As far as Codes, the State of PA did not have a Building Code until July 2005 and most Municipalities fought the adoption of Statewide Building Codes.

The Public really does not care.
They just want the Cheapest Guy to fix the problem (not repair the condition) in the most Inexpensive manner possible.

[William J. Decker]

Originally Posted by jhagarty

Will,

PA does not License Contractors. Never has and most likely never will.

As far as Codes, the State of PA did not have a Building Code until July 2005 and most Municipalities fought the adoption of Statewide Building Codes.

The Public really does not care.
They just want the Cheapest Guy to fix the problem (not repair the condition) in the most Inexpensive manner possible.

I guess that this is the problem.

People, around here, always want the government to solve things for them. They want the government to verify that contractors are qualified and they usually believe that local building codes sufficient. They look at building codes the way they look at the criminal laws.

They think that no one would be doing roofing if they were not quailifed to do so and that the government will nake sure that this is so. They keep asking me, on a 30 year old house, "it it up to code?" I keep telling them that:

1) I do not and can not do a code inspection. I don't work for the local municipality, who sets their own code, and cannot legally comment on the municipalities codes.
2) I tell them that if they want a code inspection, they should call the local municiaplity. I also say that the local code guy will only do a 10 minute inspection (if that!) and if the codie makes a mistake or misses something, they, by state law, cannot be held to account. They have no liability.
3) Just because the guy has a license does not mean that he is good. Just because the guy has been doing it for 20 years, that does not mean he is good.

But I agree, people want the best quality work but are only willing to pay the lowest price.

You always get what you pay for.

And you ALWAYS wind up paying, either up front for the work, or in the end when the work has to be redone

Most good tradesmen I know do not want jobs where they have to come in and clean up someone else's mistakes. I think that that is a wise policy.

[jtedesco1]

Originally Posted by wdecker

I think that that is my question, Joe. What does qualified mean?

How can the public be sure that their electrician is good.

Does he do a quality job, of just work to meet the bare minimum of local codes?

How can the public be sure?

Will: The electrician would have to meet these standards and be prepared to show reasons why and why not he or she should be allowed to perfom work permitted or otherwise.

Qualified Person. One who has skills and knowledge related to the construction and operation of the electrical equipment and installations and has received safety training on the hazards involved.



FPN: Refer to NFPA 70E-2004, Standard for Electrical Safety in the Workplace, for electrical safety training requirements.


The following excerpt on training requirements is taken from 110.6 in the 2004 edition of NFPA 70E, Standard for Electrical Safety in the Workplace. These training requirements are presented here only as an aid to understanding the requisite minimum training requirements specified in NFPA 70E, a recognized and widely used workplace safety standard. It is important to understand that this commentary, like the fine print note following the definition of qualified person, is informational only, and mandatory application of these safety training provisions is dependent on whether NFPA 70E has been specifically adopted by the enforcing jurisdiction.

Excerpt from NFPA 70E-2004, Standard for Electrical Safety in the Workplace

110.6 Training Requirements.

(A) Safety Training. The training requirements contained in this section shall apply to employees who face a risk of electrical hazard that is not reduced to a safe level by the electrical installation requirements of Chapter 4 [of NFPA 70E]. Such employees shall be trained to understand the specific hazards associated with electrical energy. They shall be trained in safety-related work practices and procedural requirements as necessary to provide protection from the electrical hazards associated with their respective job or task assignments. Employees shall be trained to identify and understand the relationship between electrical hazards and possible injury.

(B) Type of Training. The training required by this section shall be classroom or on-the-job type, or a combination of the two. The degree of training provided shall be determined by the risk to the employee.

(C) Emergency Procedures. Employees working on or near exposed energized electrical conductors or circuit parts shall be trained in methods of release of victims from contact with exposed energized conductors or circuit parts. Employees shall be regularly instructed in methods of first aid and emergency procedures, such as approved methods of resuscitation, if their duties warrant such training.

(D) Employee Training.


(1) Qualified Person. A qualified person shall be trained and knowledgeable of the construction and operation of equipment or a specific work method and be trained to recognize and avoid the electrical hazards that might be present with respect to that equipment or work method.


(a) Such persons shall also be familiar with the proper use of the special precautionary techniques, personal protective equipment, including arc-flash, insulating and shielding materials, and insulated tools and test equipment. A person can be considered qualified with respect to certain equipment and methods but still be unqualified for others.


(b) An employee who is undergoing on-the-job training and who, in the course of such training, has demonstrated an ability to perform duties safely at his or her level of training and who is under the direct supervision of a qualified person shall be considered to be a qualified person for the performance of those duties.


(c) Such persons permitted to work within the Limited Approach Boundary of exposed live parts operating at 50 volts or more shall, at a minimum, be additionally trained in all of the following:



(1) The skills and techniques necessary to distinguish exposed energized parts from other parts of electrical equipment


(2) The skills and techniques necessary to determine the nominal voltage of exposed live parts


(3) The approach distances specified in Table 130.2(C) [of NFPA 70E] and the corresponding voltages to which the qualified person will be exposed


(4) The decision-making process necessary to determine the degree and extent of the hazard and the personal protective equipment and job planning necessary to perform the task safely

(2) Unqualified Persons. Unqualified persons shall be trained in and be familiar with any of the electrical safety-related practices that might not be addressed specifically by Chapter 1 [of NFPA 70E] but are necessary for their safety.

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

Originally Posted by jtedesco1

Will: The electrician would have to meet these standards and be prepared to show reasons why and why not he or she should be allowed to perfom work permitted or otherwise.

Qualified Person. One who has skills and knowledge related to the construction and operation of the electrical equipment and installations and has received safety training on the hazards involved..

WOW!
Joe we have only so much time to do an Inspection .
It is not my job to see who is qualified to do electrical repairs ,Furnace repairs , AC ,HRV, Roofs, Plumbing, Carpentry, ETC.
I find a fault write it up and move on .


...Cookie

[jtedesco1]

Originally Posted by rcooke

WOW!
Joe we have only so much time to do an Inspection .
It is not my job to see who is qualified to do electrical repairs ,Furnace repairs , AC ,HRV, Roofs, Plumbing, Carpentry, ETC.
I find a fault write it up and move on .


...Cookie

That's right you will not verify experience! The electrical safety authority in your area will be concerned. I will be concerned too when wearing my AHJ hat. Your reccommendation should include some type of statement related to qualified person, and since you too are an electrician I am sure you will agree!

[tdietrich1]

Originally Posted by jhagarty

As far as Codes, the State of PA did not have a Building Code until July 2005 and most Municipalities fought the adoption of Statewide Building Codes.

The license isn't a measure of a ability, but permission to do work. I mean, I am licensed by Allentown, Pa to do electrical work. The largest of the regional cites, so the smaller ones gladly accept it for permits. Now you know I AM 'licensed', I don't feel it's right or necessary. Not another red box please.

Follow me. The ultimate guarantee of work performance is who guarantees the work? Circular logic, but follow me. I have an Allentown License, what happens if I burn down a house(KOW)? Allentown rebuild it? Allentown yanks my license? Allentown guarantees my work? All of which are no. My real license is that I carry insurance, and my provider accepts my training as acceptable for the 1m/2m policy I carry.

Another point about state licensing. Is there any licenses to sell clocks in Pa? No. But if I go into a store and buy one, even with no store warranty clearly expressed in a sign, and it's broken when I get home, do I have grounds for a refund? Yes. Regardless of any licensing, store or manufacture warranties, there is an implied warranty that when I pay for something, ti will 'work'.

Another point. There is no state licensing for firefighters, how ever my fire chief wants all of us to meet NFPA requirements of training. (NFPA1001) Since in a lawsuit, there is an implied set of standards, NFPA, and if we mess up, a civil case could find fault in anyone under trained entering a burning building.

So, even though I am licensed as a residential electrician by a government agency, I'm not a fan. I am a fan of certifications, that's why I challenged the IFSTA/ProBoard test.

Originally Posted by jhagarty

The Public really does not care.
They just want the Cheapest Guy to fix the problem (not repair the condition) in the most Inexpensive manner possible.

You are VERY RIGHT Joe.

I tried to go into electrical work myself, I got passed over by many customers. I would followup and ask why and I had a few say I was trying to ripp them off. Since I had in detailed estimates, cost for a permit, and the OTHER electricians said permits weren't required. I told them a quick call to the inspection devision of their local government, andy they will give you the answer. Then I asked if the OTHER electricians put license numbers, or give proof of insurance, and I would get hung up on.

People will pay the least amount of money, even if it kills them.

tom <not a lawyer>

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

Originally Posted by jtedesco1

That's right you will not verify experience! The electrical safety authority in your area will be concerned. I will be concerned too when wearing my AHJ hat. Your reccommendation should include some type of statement related to qualified person, and since you too are an electrician I am sure you will agree!

Sorry No I do not agree ,I am a generalist and treat all parts of the home as a Home inspector.
I did not renew my electrical license on purpose so I would not be held at a higher level then would be expected by any other home inspector.
I want to avoid going to court in all directions.

...Cookie

[cduphily]

Originally Posted by jhagarty

Pennsylvania does not License Electricians (or any Building Trades Contractor). Municipal Mercantile License Requirements only.

True, this "gentleman has been an electrician for a number of years license issued by individual municipalities not by the state.