Reporting on electrical issues

[Larry D. Kage]

Originally Posted by Marc D. Shunk

Some electricians automaticly bid work like this to a higher standard than was originally asked for. This is a perfectly valid business model for those guys, but I suspect it prices them out of a lot of work.

And it probably keeps them from getting phone calls after the place burns down...




I'm in the "get specific" column unless the list is dangerously long, then I let the electrician deal with it.

[Greg Fretwell]

"I suspect it prices them out of a lot of work"

Sleeping comfortably with your job is worth something.

[Marc D. Shunk]

Originally Posted by Greg Fretwell

"I suspect it prices them out of a lot of work"

Sleeping comfortably with your job is worth something.

Sure, Your Work

You just run around doing extra work you weren't hired to do. If a customer hires me to fix a light switch, and I see the main service cable has the sheath falling off it, and the meter pan is full of rust holes, all I can do is tell them about it. I just can't fix it and bill them for it. Similarly, if a customer hires me to fix things on a home inspectors list, without additional instruction, I can't just fix other things I see wrong too. I can certainly point them out, and even bid that work, but they aren't obligated to hire me to fix it, and I don't feel especially bound to fix it either if they hired me for certain particular tasks only. I'm not a Superman hero or the Electrical Police. If electricians felt compelled to fix every violation in sight, that would make for some really long days, and they're not obligated to do that anyhow.

[Greg Fretwell]

I didn't say anything was free but you have to walk away knowing you are doing a safe job and if that prices you out of the job the sleep is worth it. When my wife was in the HVAC business she used to say "sometimes you just have to say no". Sometimes they are just not willing to pay for a good job.
Let someone without a conscience sell them they will regret.

[Mike Whitt]

Let’s not forget how this works. The HI is working most of the time for the buyer and what he reports the seller must fix.

Now I am sure that the buyer would like to have the home completely rewired with a year’s warranty but it is the seller that is paying the bill for the electrical work and all he wants to pay for is what the HI has reported.

There is a long thread here about voltage drop, something that I have had to followed behind the HI report. The seller always ask if this is something that is required and the answer is, NO. Now do you think that the seller is going to pay an electrical contractor by the hour to go box to box checking every joint if it is not a code requirement?

On the same note I have checked behind the HI and fixed his listed faults and reported even worse faults to the seller. I have yet to have the seller say, “just fix it.” Instead they say fix what has been reported and that is all I am going to pay for. No I am not going to go and tell the buyer that I found these faults either unless it is a life safety issue and then I would only report it to the building inspections department when I called in for the inspection and let them handle the problem.

[Larry D. Kage]

Originally Posted by Mike Whitt

Let’s not forget how this works. The HI is working most of the time for the buyer and what he reports the seller must fix.

That may be how some people think it works. I am there, and tell my client so, to report on the present condition of the home and I may include recommendations for enhanced safety. These recommendations are not necessarily "must fixes" by the homeowner.

A railing, for instance, may be functionally consistent with its original purpose but more safe with the recommended baluster spacing.

[Marc D. Shunk]

Originally Posted by lkage

That may be how some people think it works. I am there, and tell my client so, to report on the present condition of the home and I may include recommendations for enhanced safety. These recommendations are not necessarily "must fixes" by the homeowner.
.

I agree, but that's often not the way it goes down when you leave. The buyer often feels compelled to fix the listed items to eliminate objections, or the seller often insists on the remediation in order to consumate the deal. Even if the deal is made without the repairs, I'm often presented with a year or so old home inspector report after the buyer has been in the house a while to fix the listed items. It's a list of recommendations that often is converted to a "to do" list; often early, but sometimes later.

[Larry D. Kage]

Originally Posted by Marc D. Shunk

I agree, but that's often not the way it goes down when you leave. The buyer often feels compelled to fix the listed items to eliminate objections, or the seller often insists on the remediation in order to consumate the deal. Even if the deal is made without the repairs, I'm often presented with a year or so old home inspector report after the buyer has been in the house a while to fix the listed items. It's a list of recommendations that often is converted to a "to do" list; often early, but sometimes later.

Yea, I'm sure you guys see and hear all sorts of things.

[Richard L. Bennett]

Some thoughts

An HI reports is not a "work list" for a tradesman

Depending on the home not every fixture is checked - I do not move all the junk in the garage to get to an outlet

If the report states an issue, it is an item of choice if it is corrected or lived with (leak - crack - too hot - too cold etc.)

Some people care and some do not.

If I am requested to create a work list for repair that is a new SOW (scope of work)

I also do not recommend -- I state condition. Would one recommend replacing a roof just because it was old. Or smoke alarms missing - not working.

Remember that in some areas even in an older home, Alarms must be hard wired with battery back up to meet minimum housing standards. This is not just a $10 alarm job.

rlb

----

Electrical 101

Neutral - hot reversed

Yes, it is wrong - yes, it is a safety issue but lets not make a lamp an electric chair

First one would have to be in contact with the bulb base and something else that would be neutral or ground and then have those two contact points on their body be of the right electrical condition and location to allow enough current to do damage

Like left hand on light bulb base and right bare foot on a metal water pipe

In the term reversed polarity or reversed phase are incorrect.

Polarity is positive or negative it the circuit is DC like a battery

Phase reversed is very hard when the home is single phase

Electrician please correct my thinking on the above esp about the HI report not being a work list

rlb

[Richard L. Bennett]

One other thing

Trying to get the statements changed in "canned" software is a pain

Like use a licensed sparkie - some areas - no license

And the term "recommended"

Other words like "at this time is" when it should be "was at time of inspection"

What is the condition at the time of when the report is read is anyone's guess

rlb

[Larry D. Kage]

Originally Posted by rbennett

I also do not recommend -- I state condition. Would one recommend replacing a roof just because it was old. Or smoke alarms missing - not working.

Richard, I would recommend replacing the roof, if it needed it, whether it was old or not. That may be a "Significant Issue/Defect". Or, sometimes it goes under "deferred cost" items..."Items that have reached or are reaching their normal life expectancy or show indications that they may require repair or replacement anytime during the next five (5) years.

I also make recommendations when I see potential safety hazards.

The recommendation may be as simple as "repair recommended by qualified professional".

[Richard L. Bennett]

Stating that something is broke - in need of repair or replacement is not a recommendation - it is a statement of fact

In any case what the people do and how they do it is not the HI SOW

Our HI SOW is reporting what the condition is

Look at it this way - what if we took just a picture of the issues and stated what was in the picture -- end of story - job done

Yes it is hard to take a picture of something that is missing!

Good example - missing window screen - I state that it is missing. I do not recommend that it be replaced even though most local minimal housing standards REQUIRE screens on windows that open. I might state that in many areas that this is a standard.

Another one is security bars over windows that can not be released from the inside that would block exit in case of fire. On some structures in some areas this is a big NO NO -- I just state that they are blocking egress in case of a fire

In short "recommending" is not inspecting

It also adds more words to a report and more words mean more trouble

Like "Why did you not recommend that I not buy the home because it was a fire trap" -- That might by my opinion and perhaps even true but is not what I have been contracted to do.

I just state that it was unsafe and the reasons for my statement -- walls covered with carpet that is not fire rated to be installed on a vertical surface -- breached fire barriers -- electrical issues - leaking fuel tank in basement -- cabinets too close to stove top - storage of gasoline next to gas furnace etc.

Back to the thread

Reporting electrical issues -

HIs should not have to have the knowledge and skills to be better than the tradesman. An electrician is a professional and is a better person to make the proper recommendation as to how to address an issue.

He or she should also be better finding issues in his area of expertise that the HI. We are just the messenger he is the soldier.

In the area of electrical he is our instructor


rlb

[Larry D. Kage]

Standards of Practice:

1. Definitions and Scope

1.3. An Inspection report shall describe and identify in written format the inspected systems, structures, and components of the dwelling and shall identify material defects observed. Inspection reports may contain recommendations regarding conditions reported or recommendations for correction, monitoring or further evaluation by professionals, but this is not required.

[Richard L. Bennett]

Larry

Let me get off the electrical issue reporting for a second

If that SOP was to be written again would one ever include such a statement??? It really says nothing other that recommendations are not disallowed.

Here in Florida a recommendation could come close to the services of a contractor or an engineer service of which we are not licensed or qualified to provide. Those people get real upset and the have the $$ to hurt.

Are repair estimates disallowed by some or most SOP's like a foot note stating that GFCI's are about $10.00?? While I do not give estimates I see a problem doing so if you want to

I bet some states and SOP's would be very much against estimates - Tradesman might be real upset

Sorry that I allowed myself to get off the thread

But the points that you have raised are good

Perhaps someone should start another thread -- Recommendations -- estimates -- disclaimers

rlb

[Speedy Petey]

Originally Posted by rbennett

Some thoughts

An HI reports is not a "work list" for a tradesman

Oh really? Then you've obviously never returned to a site after an inspection.
MOST buyers (and sellers) DO use inspection lists as "work lists" of specific things that MUST be done before a sale will go through.

Again, just a real world observation.