Reporting on electrical issues

[William J. Decker]

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey

Oh really? Then you've obviously never returned to a site after an inspection.
MOST buyers (and sellers) DO use inspection lists as "work lists" of specific things that MUST be done before a sale will go through.

Again, just a real world observation.

I can see this happening. I also agree with Marc, somewhat.

Different jobs with different responsibilies and liabilities.

Electricians do not have fiduciary reponsibility and are limited in their SOP to mere local codes which include grandfathering.

HI's have fiduciary responsibility and have a much broader SOP which is not limited to mere codes. In other words, we can get sued much easier.

I have run into many a house with real stupid electrical (usually, a result of the seller's or a couple of sellers ago trying to "save some money" by DIY means) and called for complete examination.

One house was really messed up. Seemed like every receptacle had reversed polarity and/or no ground and/or bootleg neutral. I called out a few specific ones and called for a "complete evaluation and repair by a licensed and insured electrical contactor". When I went back for the pre-closing walk through, I found that only the specific receptacles I pointed out were fixed. The Realtor had this crazy idea that I was preparing a punch list (really, she only read what she wanted to read from the report) and thought I should pay for the repairs to the other problems because I didn't, specifically, list each and every one.

Why dows every one try to do it on the cheap?

Around here, if an electrician is called in for a specific, say, fix a receptacle, and finds other issues that are in violation of code (local, assuming grandfathering in effect) he is required to fix the other issue as well or refuse to do the job.

If he is called in to change out the main panel, every thing downstream MUST be brought up to current code requirements. This is also a union rule. Changing out the main panel means that extensive 'remodeling' was done, which calls for everything downstream to be checked and broought up to current (local) code requirements. The AHJ will ding them for it if they don't (or, at least, they should).

I had one condo. New construction (about 6 months old) and the owner wanted to change the stove and clothes dryer to electric. This would required that the panel be switched up to 200 amps. Mind you, the entire unit was in local code compliance because it was new construction and was just signed off by the city. The builder agreed to pay for the upgrade (why? I don't know. Maybe just a nice guy or maybe crazy ) and said that the owner could find her own electrician and he would pay for it.

I checked out the work, afterward (inspecting on behalf of the builder, as part of a law suit) and found real stupid stuff. Low voltage transformer mounted inside the panel, no AFCI protection, under gauged wire, and over fusing of the lighting.

Who was the only person who could have screwed this up. The electrician who changed out the panel and put in the two 240 circuits.

But the builder was getting sued! And all he did was pay for the upgrade!

During my testimony in court, I brough this up. The plaintif's lawyer asked me how I could be sure that these were not 'prexisting' problems. I just replied that the city had inspected it (during construction) and had signed off (and I had a copy of the sign off!) and the only other person who touched the electrical since then was the contractor.

Won the case for the builder.

[Greg Fretwell]

Municipal inspectors are not that thorough in my experience.
You got lucky.

[Speedy Petey]

Originally Posted by wdecker

Around here, if an electrician is called in for a specific, say, fix a receptacle, and finds other issues that are in violation of code (local, assuming grandfathering in effect) he is required to fix the other issue as well or refuse to do the job.

If he is called in to change out the main panel, every thing downstream MUST be brought up to current code requirements. This is also a union rule. Changing out the main panel means that extensive 'remodeling' was done, which calls for everything downstream to be checked and broought up to current (local) code requirements. The AHJ will ding them for it if they don't (or, at least, they should).

I find this VERY hard to believe. Even for Illinois which has some screwed up codes and rules.
This is America for goodness sake! How can they require extensive upgrades in areas NOT touched by an isolated renovation??

And you are saying that if a homeowner does not want all the work done to clear existing violations, a licensed electrician cannot legally take the smaller job he was called to do???? Sorry, I call BS on that one.

I'd need to see all this in writing before I'd EVER buy it.

Bill, I am not doubting your knowledge, I am doubting how things are interpreted and how things get confused by word of mouth.

[Richard L. Bennett]

Yes but they are the right hand of GOD

Back to reporting

Be it electrical - HVAC -plumbing etc. -- It looks like it should be a work list with recommended corrective actions

--- This sucks ---- Too much work for the pay ---

Welcome to the real world sparkies ---- Do your own inspection based on my report and make your own quote for repair to make my client yours

If you want me to do your work then pay me

I will give you a general report that says -- ungrounded fixtures -- under sized wire -- improper breakers -- open grounds -- unprotected wiring -- GFCI's will not test -- not all fixtures tested do to assibility

Do not get upset I am sending you business

And yes on some things you will have to pull a permit and have the local BI inspect your work - and yes it will come under your insurance - you touched it last - it is yours


rlb

[Richard L. Bennett]

Speedy

This ball is in your court -- you are the pro we are not

Small repairs are one thing --- Upgrades are something else -- in our area to change a panel is a major upgrade and the rest of the home must be a CURRENT code - AFCI - GFCI -- grounds etc.

If a panel is maxed out and maybe double lugged and to correct the only thing to do is to upgrade the panel to 200 amps then permits and a few feet of new cable

The only thing that the HI calls out was double lugging and maxed out panel

This is an engineering and or electro contractor's project that we can't and should not make recommendations on. You all might be able to replace the panel with one of the same rating with more breaker holes or common up some low current branches -- this is beyond the scope of the hi

It should not be a work list of us telling telling you how to do your job -- you are the professionals in this area

Please understand my point -- if you just take our report as the only issues that need correcting it is all on your professional back

You all are the professionals -- not us --

Why would you follow our work list???

rlb




rlb

[Frank P. Newman]

Originally Posted by rbennett

Yes but they are the right hand of GOD

Back to reporting

Be it electrical - HVAC -plumbing etc. -- It looks like it should be a work list with recommended corrective actions

--- This sucks ---- Too much work for the pay ---

Welcome to the real world sparkies ---- Do your own inspection based on my report and make your own quote for repair to make my client yours

If you want me to do your work then pay me

I will give you a general report that says -- ungrounded fixtures -- under sized wire -- improper breakers -- open grounds -- unprotected wiring -- GFCI's will not test -- not all fixtures tested do to assibility

Do not get upset I am sending you business

And yes on some things you will have to pull a permit and have the local BI inspect your work - and yes it will come under your insurance - you touched it last - it is yours


rlb

Absolutely - Exactly similar to what I was trying to say many posts ago !

[Marc D. Shunk]

Originally Posted by rbennett

If you want me to do your work then pay me

Nobody's suggested that. What I'm saying is that people often only contract us to do the work that's on your list. That's not my fault. They normally want very specific work done to satisfy very specific report line items. I am neither compelled or obligated to even quote them on any additional work, unless they want me to. I sometimes do anyhow, but there's nothing that requires me to do so unless they ask me to. Like Mike Whitt rightfully points out, if I notice an hazard of such a nature that there may be immediate danger to lives, then I'll point it out to the customer and let the power company and the building inspector know. I'm under no special obligation to fix it and the customer is not obligated to hire me to fix it either. They just risk having the power cut off until they decide what to do, however. If I take my car to the garage for a tune up, and the mechanic notices that the brakes are shot, he will let me know. I can still drive it home anyhow if I want to.

Naturally, if a home inspector's report suggests that the entire system be evaluated, and the customer wants me to do that, that's exactly what I do.

[Mike Whitt]

After reading this entire thread I am under the impression that some here think that as electricians we are supposed to correct any and all deficiencies in the system and if we don’t then we take liability for the complete system.

In my area and I have done many jobs based on the HI report, we only repair those things we buy a permit for. If I get a call from a realtor to look at a house that a HI has inspected before the sale I will look at those things in his report and do repairs as needed.

It is not my job, unless hired to do so, to inspect the system but only to make any repairs that the realtor has pointed out for me to do.
I buy the permit based on the work that I was hired to do and my liability ends at the point of the permit. Liability is not transferred to me from something that the HI overlooked or didn’t have the knowledge to point out. I am responsible for the work I perform and nothing more.

The one thing that I will never do is sign a paper that a system is safe and free from hazards even if it is one I just installed. There is no liability on me or my company if any part of the system is damaged by someone else or by an act of God. I am required to warranty my work for a period of one year not to warranty the damage done by others.

Also in my area a HI could not be sued for anything that is outside the scope of the SOP. Should a HI go outside the scope of the SOP then he has opened himself up on his own.

As to those who think that passing the buck to the electrical contractor and the electrician should do all this work for nothing I have a job for you.
I want to have you look at my house and charge for the house but while you are at it I also have six out buildings that I am expecting you to look at for no extra charge.
If you don’t look at them and something is wrong with either one of them I am going to hold you personally responsible for any cost of repairs.

Now that just doesn’t sound right does it? The same is true about the electrician doing all the repairs based on a faulty system because you didn’t call out every thing.

[Richard L. Bennett]

Mr Skunk

If the client ask you to change out a panel and you can not legally do it with our a major rewiring of the home would you do it because that is what the client ask???

To go back to your break job on the car --- He said they are bad and you can drive it home BUT to make it write you ask him to cut your disk under the limit instead of replacing them he must draw the line -- what you are willing to pay for is not a service that he should do

If you go to a home and find it needs more than the HI general work list -- do the job right or walk

No way can an HI find all the problems that a professional electrical contractor can find. For one thing many of us do not do voltage drop testing we think that this is on your plate

Our issue list is not the complete list

rlb





rlb

[Marc D. Shunk]

Originally Posted by rbennett

Mr Skunk

If the client ask you to change out a panel and you can not legally do it with our a major rewiring of the home would you do it because that is what the client ask???

To go back to your break job on the car --- He said they are bad and you can drive it home BUT to make it write you ask him to cut your disk under the limit instead of replacing them he must draw the line -- what you are willing to pay for is not a service that he should do

I'd never do anything illegal. The customer is legally permitted to hire me to perform certain tasks, and I'm legally permitted to do those tasks. Granted, to perform some tasks, additional work is sometimes necessary to get that certain task done. You're muddying the waters by suggesting that something illegal would ever occur, which is simply not what I'm talking about. For instance, if the customer hired me to correct polarity on three receptacles, but reversed polarity existed on 5 others, I'm not obligated to fix those 5 others unless the customer hired me to survey all the receptacles and correct them as necessary. This is the sort of thing I'm talking about. Similarly, if the customer hired me to change out a fuse panel to breakers, then I'd be doing other additional work to accomplish that task, such as upgrading the grounding electrode systems, and probably changing out the meter can and service riser. I necessarily sometimes need to do extra stuff to legally perform a line item task, but that's often not always the case. I can put in a bathroom GFCI without also putting GFCI's in the kitchen, if that's all they want me to do.

Hopefully I've cleared that up a bit.

[Richard L. Bennett]

Mike

I see a brick wall here

We look at it this way -- it needs help

For us to go down to every defect and re engineer the home is very hard for an HI to do because we are not electricians

If the electrical contractor is just addressing our stated issues then why should he not address a general statement that the home electrical system should be evaluated for additional issues not identified at time of inspection??

rlb

[Marc D. Shunk]

Originally Posted by rbennett

For us to go down to every defect and re engineer the home is very hard for an HI to do because we are not electricians

Not a soul is asking you or even expecting you to do that.

What I'm pointing out is the simple reality that pro's are often hired to only specificly remediate your line items. That is unfortunate for all of us involved. I wish I was given permission to look the place over real good, but that permission doesn't happen 75% of the time. They simply want to eliminate certain objections, and sell the place.

[Marc D. Shunk]

Originally Posted by rbennett

If the electrical contractor is just addressing our stated issues then why should he not address a general statement that the home electrical system should be evaluated for additional issues not identified at time of inspection??

Sometimes we do, if wer're hired to do that. Normally, that's not what we're hired to do. Sometimes we are, and that's a good thing.

[Richard L. Bennett]

Mr Skuck

No you have not helped

What you are saying is that the HI must give you a work list of every problem

I look at it this way -- the home owner is telling you what to do not the HI and thus we are off the hook

You do what they say. You are to do and that is the end of it unless it is out side of the permit or the rule that says that this is a major upgrade and that everything must be up to current code

What the real problem is - should we check every outlet - junction box - fixture - etc or can we make a general statement that we inspected a representative number of fixtures and found enough issues to have an electrical contractor check everything

We are all on the same side -- what is the proper statement to our client??


rlb

[Marc D. Shunk]

Originally Posted by rbennett

What you are saying is that the HI must give you a work list of every problem

Nope, havn't said that at all. All I've said is that people (homeowners and perspective homeowners) have the mistaken impression that if they hire me to only do what's on the list, all is good. I don't want you to make a comprehensive list. I'm not asking you to do anything different than you're doing now. I'm just pointing out what people seem to do with your report, is all. Sometimes they do hire me to completely evaluate the place, as per your suggestion. Other times, they only hire me to do specific items from the list. I can't do anything about that, and neither can you. Your frustration, at the moment, is misplaced.