Reporting on electrical issues

[Speedy Petey]

Mmmmmm......Marshmallows.......

Yeah, I did say that but like I said, I don't know how the box system works.
I have several green comments most agreeing with something I posted. So maybe the greenie system is for more than helpfulness?


Sorry, I forgot I was done here.
Buh-bye.

[Richard L. Bennett]

Speedy

You are on a sinking boat on this issue

Start swimming

I hope that your statements are not those of the electrical profession

I do believe that they are educated better than I am in their field and can spot problems that I did not and that they will not just take the check and run and will take care of now their client

If this is not the case then I am going to start offering a FREE check up on any contractor that does repairs based on my report

Get out your live jacket

rlb

[Richard L. Bennett]

I think that some of these issues should be moved to member area


rlb

[Speedy Petey]

Originally Posted by rbennett

.....and that they will not just take the check and run and will take care of now their client

Jeeze, can't anyone read around here.



Richie, I can tread water for days.

[Richard L. Bennett]

Ok

Stop swimming - you will die soon

You want to save the ship?

Then paddle like heII and come back on board and help with the pumps

If the HI says their are problems then you step up to the plate and say how to fix them -- real simple

We say their are no GFCI's - you say put them in the panel

We say no smoke alarms - you say I will hard wire them in

We say panel maxed out - you say I will replace and upgrad as required by local code

We say no grounds on some outlets - you say I will test all and give you a quote one correcting the issue

We say some splices in the attic need to be in junction boxes - you say that you will find them and put them in boxes with covers

We say that there is unprotective wiring in the home - you say I will find it and give you a quote to correct the issue

Remember that you can not quote off our inspection because if I say that the outlet in the bath room is not GFCI protected you do not know what is going on until you check it out

The only outlet could be in the single bulb light fixture above the sink

To correct the issue could be more than a service call and a $10 GFCI outlet

Welcome back on board

BTW -- why don't you send Nick some $ and join InerNACHI?

You might make electrician out of some of us and maybe we can make an HI out of you

rlb

[William J. Decker]

What he said.

[Mike Whitt]

Originally Posted by rbennett

You might make electrician out of some of us and maybe we can make an HI out of you

rlb

Richard,

In the several hundred calls I have responded to concerning a Home Inspection I have saw less than one report that the Home Inspector made.

The seller of the home only tells me some of the things that the HI has pointed out and asks me to look at them. They don’t give me your report and say fix this nor do they say to me that the HI has recommended a complete evaluation of the system.

Nothing would please me more than to spend a couple of days checking and repairing the electrical system in a house that was built in 1955 and bring it up to today’s standards but the truth of the matter is the seller is not going to spend that kind of money.

I have one agent that uses me a lot when selling a house. One case that came up a couple of years back was a house built in 1955 that didn’t have GFCI protection in the kitchen and outside receptacles. There was no Arc-Fault in the panel although the panel was a 125 amp breaker box that had been installed a few years earlier.

The question that was proposed to me was, “Is GFCI and Arc-Fault devices required to be installed in this dwelling unit?”
The answer to the question is “NO” These items were not required at the time this house was built and there is no law that forces their installation now unless the circuit is opened.

Should they be installed for safety reasons? Yes and I did recommend that they be addressed but the house sold without any electrical issues being addressed.

Now I could have demanded that the seller give me a copy of the HI’s report and demanded that he make all the repairs that the HI pointed out. I could have even jumped into doing these repairs and the seller could have prosecuted me for the damages and trespassing in a court of law.

The bottom line here is that the HI makes these recommendations and it is then on the seller to decide just how he is going to handle the recommendations not the electrician nor the Home Inspector.

I am in business to make money just the same as you are and I am bond to the demand of the customer just as you. Even though you point something out that is a life safety issue and the seller calls me to look at it does not mean that the seller is going to address the recommendation of either of us and neither of us can force the seller to make any repairs at all.

[William J. Decker]

Originally Posted by Mike Whitt

Richard,

In the several hundred calls I have responded to concerning a Home Inspection I have saw less than one report that the Home Inspector made.

The seller of the home only tells me some of the things that the HI has pointed out and asks me to look at them. They don’t give me your report and say fix this nor do they say to me that the HI has recommended a complete evaluation of the system.

Good point. I believe that it is the buyers (or their lawyers) responsibility to see that the recommendations in the report be fully conveyed to the seller. But what usually happens is the Realtor gets involved (or takes over) and sees the report as a punch list and wants to do the "bare minimum" to get the house sold.

Nothing would please me more than to spend a couple of days checking and repairing the electrical system in a house that was built in 1955 and bring it up to today’s standards but the truth of the matter is the seller is not going to spend that kind of money.

Agreed. I would point out, in my report, how much of the electrical system is "original" (i.e., installed in 1955) and how much has been "modified" or "improved" by the seller (DIY is the usual way around here) and is therefore an "owner installed defect". If the seller created the problem, the seller should fix their mistakes. Too bad, for both HIs and electricians, that the law does not require this.

I have one agent that uses me a lot when selling a house. One case that came up a couple of years back was a house built in 1955 that didn’t have GFCI protection in the kitchen and outside receptacles. There was no Arc-Fault in the panel although the panel was a 125 amp breaker box that had been installed a few years earlier.

The question that was proposed to me was, “Is GFCI and Arc-Fault devices required to be installed in this dwelling unit?”

When asked this question, I ask "what do you mean by 'required'?". Required by local codes? Probably not. Required by current national electrical safety standards? Yes. I then ask the client, "How safe do you want your new house to be? How many electrical safety problems do you want your new house to have, when compared against the most current standard"" Sure, it is not "required by law", but it is required by common sense (which is, usually, in conflict with the law ).

The answer to the question is “NO” These items were not required at the time this house was built and there is no law that forces their installation now unless the circuit is opened.

Should they be installed for safety reasons? Yes and I did recommend that they be addressed but the house sold without any electrical issues being addressed.

My point exactly. You are properly informing the customer and giving them the option. The problem then becomes informing the buyer that the seller is the choak point that is blocking their safety. Sure, the new owner may never have a problem. But the new owner could also be electrocuted. It's a crap shoot.

Now I could have demanded that the seller give me a copy of the HI’s report and demanded that he make all the repairs that the HI pointed out. I could have even jumped into doing these repairs and the seller could have prosecuted me for the damages and trespassing in a court of law.

I understand. Welcome to an HIs world.

The bottom line here is that the HI makes these recommendations and it is then on the seller to decide just how he is going to handle the recommendations not the electrician nor the Home Inspector.

And the buyer's decision whether they will buy the house, based upon what the seller decides. Also the buyers decision on what they will have repaired if they do buy the house.

I am in business to make money just the same as you are and I am bond to the demand of the customer just as you. Even though you point something out that is a life safety issue and the seller calls me to look at it does not mean that the seller is going to address the recommendation of either of us and neither of us can force the seller to make any repairs at all.

People usually believe they are so smart when they can avoid saving money. Then, if something goes wrong, they don't want to admit that their "smarts" were actually just stupidity.

I believe that at least 50% of all PI lawsuits are a result of this process.

[Richard L. Bennett]

Mike

Well said

We can call it client education or marketing. Some just think that if it works don't mess with it

Perhaps we should start showing PIX of electrical issues that STOPPED working (Burned up panels etc.)

I wish I could quote some insurance numbers - maybe the general condition of US homes are worse than we think

rlb

[Jim Port]

I am not sure if I want to jump into this fray or not but here goes.

Someone raised the issue about government regulations. Around here tomorrow I can decide to open a HI business. (This may have changed just recently).All I need to do is pay the state a fee to register the company and provide insurance. Does this make me a professional? I don't think so. Does this mean that I have the knowledge and experience to provide a quality inspection? Again, I don't think so. When there have been attempts to regulate the HI industry they have been shot down. Would some type of requirement to at least have some expertise or experience in building construction before becoming a HI stop that many? I don't know for sure, but it would add credibility. Without experience how can someone properly evaluate a home? This is akin to asking for advice from the guy in the lumber department for electrical advice.

I really resent the fear that HI's instill to realtors and their clients by trying to enforce unenforceable "codes". If the residence met codes when built, and have not been modified, that is it, period. Can you make suggestions and note deficiencies? Yes, please do, but do it without telling clients that they are "required". Maybe I am biased because of some of the comments written on the reports from HI's that I have seen that wanted illegal fixes made or things like dedicated circuits for refrigerators because it is "Code". Perhaps comments like this really don't help my feelings, "
Two prong receptacle in basement near window is obsolete, change to three prong." I guess it really didn't matter that the cable was only 2 conductor.
Homeowners feel if they don't do items on your inspection report that the sale will not go thru because it is gospel.

Like Petey, I feel that the local requirements to update the whole house due to a panel changeout is ludicris and would impose an undue burden if enforced. All I can see is someone knowing that if they change a panel for $2K, that it will trigger them to spend another $15K to replace everything else that they will forgo making any changes and continuing to live with a possibly unsafe condition. Hopefully the powers that be don't extend this same logic to used cars otherwise airbags will be required in a Pinto.

Like others I do use your inspection report as a work order. If you say that the receptacle at the front door has reversed polarity, that is the one that I check. I do not go behind you to find what you have missed.

Enough on my soapbox.

[William J. Decker]

Originally Posted by Jim Port

I am not sure if I want to jump into this fray or not but here goes.

Welcome to the fun.

Someone raised the issue about government regulations. Around here tomorrow I can decide to open a HI business. (This may have changed just recently).All I need to do is pay the state a fee to register the company and provide insurance. Does this make me a professional? I don't think so. Does this mean that I have the knowledge and experience to provide a quality inspection?

Different areas of the country, different laws ans different requirements. In Ilinois, a state license is required. This involves 60 hours of instruction and passing a 4 hour state exam. Some people think 60 hours is to short (in fact, they are in the process of changing that to 80 hours, plus requiring 10 inspections) and some do not. Different areas and different opinions.

I do agree with you that not everyone who hangs out a shingle is automatically a professional. I would also add that there are some inspectors that I know, in my area, who are licensed and have done many inspection, who are definately NIT professionals (at least in their work product and practices) even though the state says they are.

Professionalism, with regards to quality and ethics, is not something that can be bestowed, it is something that must be earned and comes from inside the individual.

Again, I don't think so. When there have been attempts to regulate the HI industry they have been shot down. Would some type of requirement to at least have some expertise or experience in building construction before becoming a HI stop that many? I don't know for sure, but it would add credibility. Without experience how can someone properly evaluate a home? This is akin to asking for advice from the guy in the lumber department for electrical advice.

I have seen many people come from the building trades and go into HI. Some are good, but some are not. Doing the work is not the same thing as inspecting the work. If a carpenter becomes an HI, that does not mean that he knows anything about electrical, plumbing or roofs.

I see, more and more, people coming from outside the trades and most of them have college degrees, who are becoming outstanding inspectors. If college teaches you anything, it is how to teach yourself and learn.

I really resent the fear that HI's instill to realtors and their clients by trying to enforce unenforceable "codes". If the residence met codes when built, and have not been modified, that is it, period. Can you make suggestions and note deficiencies? Yes, please do, but do it without telling clients that they are "required". Maybe I am biased because of some of the comments written on the reports from HI's that I have seen that wanted illegal fixes made or things like dedicated circuits for refrigerators because it is "Code". Perhaps comments like this really don't help my feelings, "

I ams sorry that you have run into stupid inspectors and that you believe all inspectors are like that. They aren't.

HIs cannot enforce or require. We can (and, must, at least in some states) recommend. If I see an ungrounded receptacle, I call it out as not being in compliance with current, national standards with regards to safety. I recommend it be brought up to current safety standards. If I don't, I am in violation of state HI law and, if someone gets hurt, can be sued for negligence (that's the way it is in our state). I cannot and do not require or "try(ing) to enforce unenforcable codes".

Two prong receptacle in basement near window is obsolete, change to three prong." I guess it really didn't matter that the cable was only 2 conductor.
Homeowners feel if they don't do items on your inspection report that the sale will not go thru because it is gospel.

I agree that this verbiage is not clear or helpful. I would write "two prong receptacle is not equipped with a ground prong and is not in compliance with current national safety standards. Recommend that the recepacle be replaced with a modern, ground bonded 3 prong receptacle for safety reasons." Please note, I do not require changing it out, I recommend for purposes of safety. Again, if someone gets hurt and I didn't call it out, I am legally liable (at least in Illinois). In a similar situation, an electrician would not be liable. There is a difference in the legal standards of practice between electricians and HIs (at least in this state). I keep trying to educate buyers, Realtors and electricians to this fact.

Like Petey, I feel that the local requirements to update the whole house due to a panel changeout is ludicris and would impose an undue burden if enforced. All I can see is someone knowing that if they change a panel for $2K, that it will trigger them to spend another $15K to replace everything else that they will forgo making any changes and continuing to live with a possibly unsafe condition. Hopefully the powers that be don't extend this same logic to used cars otherwise airbags will be required in a Pinto.

Regardless of your opinion, this is the law around here.

Here's one for you to consider. The city of Chicago does not allow "mini breakers" (breakers with two connections of conductors that attach to only one panel lug. As far as I know, they are approved by the manufacturer and the NEC, as well as by most of the local municipalities outside Chicago. These breakers were never allowed, so grandfathering is not involved. People usuallyt use them when they run out of lugs and don't want to pay for a new panel. Thus it is an "Owner installed defect".

If I run into a mini breaker, in Chicago, I cannot (legally) say it is not code (City of Chicago code) compliant, because I don't work for the city and cannot, legally, quote their codes. I write, "these type of breakers are usually not allowed in this jurisdiction. Contact local building code officials or a licensed and insured electrical contactor (who can quote city code) for evaluation and, if needed, replacement.".

Most times, no evaluation is done. Seller may be feeling guilty that they installed it illegally and does not want it found because it would mean that he has to have a panel change out.

The device is "safe", at least according to the NEC and the manufacturer, but not legal according to local codes. I do not call it out as unsafe.

How would you handle this situation, given our local requirements and codes?

Like others I do use your inspection report as a work order. If you say that the receptacle at the front door has reversed polarity, that is the one that I check. I do not go behind you to find what you have missed.

What is the inspection called for you to evaluate all the receptacles and repair as needed?

And, to be sure, there are things that HIs miss, bit then again, we are prohibited from doing invasive testing, which electricians are not.

Enough on my soapbox.

I enjoyed it. Good conversation and give and take.

[brian winkle]

Originally Posted by rbennett

Mike

Well said



Perhaps we should start showing PIX of electrical issues that STOPPED working (Burned up panels etc.)



rlb

My instructor back in code class had a saying, "The trouble with electricity is that it always works", meaning a system has to be designed to make it stop working at the right time(s).

[Mike Whitt]

Originally Posted by brian winkle

My instructor back in code class had a saying, "The trouble with electricity is that it always works", meaning a system has to be designed to make it stop working at the right time(s).

No truer words have been spoken