Should bonding strap be removed?

[scosta]

This is a sub panel 3 wire feed, and the ground going to the water line. The grounds and neutrals are seperated, but the bonding strap is attached. These grounds appear to be bonded to the box also. So the bonding strap should be removed correct?

Thanks, Steve

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Ok.....From what i see that feeder that is actually supplying this panel is VERY small......looks like a freakin 10 AWG supplying this thing...so i got issues with that right off the bat.

I also have to tell you a 3 wire setup is WRONG.....but I will tell you a few things about bonding.....if they ran 3 wire to this and they did NOT leave that bonding strap in their would be a hard pressed way to clear a fault on the enclosure.....so while it is wrong I begin to worry about (2) wrongs not EVER making any right.....

They need to redo this panel with a (4) conductor setup and isolate the "grounded" conductor bar.....now if they TAKE that advice they need to have an electrician look at the load of this enclosure as well.

Now.....I will go on a limb because Bonding and Grounding is kinda my gig.....if they decided to do nothing...atleast bonding them together gives the chance of clearing a fault....but not a perfect situation so honestly I would simply defer and let the electrician look this over and defer your liability.

Now I also don't think the GE breaker should be in this enclosure because it to me looks like it will not fit properly in the cover opening footprint but thats really just me shooting in the wind on that one.

I also see some BLACK conductors being re-identified as "grounded" conductors and so on....Defer...Defer...Defer and let the Electrician sort it out.

I am sure others will find additional things.....I am back to watching my Movie....Later

P.S. I also QUESTION that screw holding the bonding strap on...looks like a sheetmetal screw to me .....and a stripped one to boot which tells me it is not from a tapped hole...but again just my observation and YES....if this panel was done RIGHT it would need that bonding strap removed......again you could remove it now but then you could have trouble if the enclosure is energized...again it SHOULD just be redone with (4) Conductors and done right....

Oh...also the GEC to the water pipe should go back to the main panel that feeds this "remote" panel.....

[brian winkle]

It's real obvious someone installed a new panel here on some ancient wiring. The original wiring has no grounding conductors, now they brought in new romex circuits to a panel not equipped with a way to properly ground it. The panel should never have been changed without bringing in the proper feeders.

Also it it defintely not legal to use the interior water piping as a grounding path. Plus, with the bonding strip in place, any compromise in the neutral feeder will place voltage on the house plumbing.

[scosta]

Thank you both.
Steve

[rstuart]

Excellent analysis, very good. Thank you.
Ross

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Most certainly........at some point this will be a SHOCKING experience for the owner of this electrical mess....

[staylor5]

Paul, by 4 conductor, what do you mean? It can't be 2 hots a neutral and a ground. The ground does not count as a conductor.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

it is when you RUN it.....you are trying to count it in some kinda calculation or if it is current carrying...I am saying in THIS case it needs .

Ah.......the bare is called " Equipment Grounding Conductor" so last I checked it is most certainly a conductor and in the 4 wire setup it is most certainly a conductor.........

You must maintain a low impedence path for fault current and the 4th conductor ( be is bare, insulated or conduit ) can serve that purpose depending on the installation.

[staylor5]

So why is it that you don't count it the same when figuring out area, or when you have bx (3 wire = 2 hots and a neutral, 3 wire with ground = self explaining).

[staylor5]

So why is it that when calculating the area of a box the ground is done differently? Why is itthat BX is 3 conductor or 3 conductor with a ground?
I know that it is called a grounding conductor but it only conducts a fault.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

lol....mysteries of the world huh...lol

In reference to BX itself....if we are talking about TRUE BX then it's case is not a grounding conductor...period but we have been down that road.

In the counting..it is counted as a conductor.....all combined as being considered (1) conductor.....so it is counted just in a different way.

However, that would be in TRYING to explain the CODE and I wont do that hear because I can just see the NEGATIVE boxes flying now....

In the use of it to a "remote" panel it is most certainly a conductor which DOES carry away fault current...or any CURRENT likely to be emposed on it in an effort to help clear the OCPD while providing a low impedence path to the enclosure and thus back to the source....( not ground as many still think )

lol......you will have to write the NEC to ask why they only count the EGC as (1) conductor in box sizing.....I did not write that code...

Also...lets not confuse older style BX with AC cable seen today.....all depends on the intent of the cable being used.

[Marc D. Shunk]

I can't believe that so far, nobody's pointed out the most obvious problem.

The panel has what appears to be many knob and tube circuits coming in one big romex connector.

300.15 Boxes, Conduit Bodies, or Fittings —Where Required.
A box shall be installed at each outlet and switch
point for concealed knob-and-tube wiring.
Fittings and connectors shall be used only with the specific
wiring methods for which they are designed and listed.
Where the wiring method is conduit, tubing, Type AC
cable, Type MC cable, Type MI cable, nonmetallicsheathed
cable, or other cables, a box or conduit body shall
be installed at each conductor splice point, outlet point,
switch point, junction point, termination point, or pull
point, unless otherwise permitted in 300.15(A) through
(M).


312.5 Cabinets, Cutout Boxes, and Meter Socket Enclosures.
Conductors entering enclosures within the scope of
this article shall be protected from abrasion and shall comply
with 312.5(A) through (C).
(B) Metal Cabinets, Cutout Boxes, and Meter Socket
Enclosures. Where metal enclosures within the scope of
this article are installed with messenger supported wiring,
open wiring on insulators or concealed knob-and-tube wiring,
conductors shall enter through insulating bushings or,
in dry locations, through flexible tubing extending from the
last insulating support and firmly secured to the enclosure.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Because thats what the forum is for........to have everyone provide issues and insight...not for one person to do it.

However I don't believe these picture were posted to elaborate on all the items in the pictures.....but more so to answer the specific question of the original poster and that was this :

This is a sub panel 3 wire feed, and the ground going to the water line. The grounds and neutrals are seperated, but the bonding strap is attached. These grounds appear to be bonded to the box also. So the bonding strap should be removed correct?

I am more than sure he came up with plenty of other defects but was more concerned on the topic he posted.

[scosta]

Yes, I was posting about the specific defect.
Thanks for all replies.
Steve

[Marc D. Shunk]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

However I don't believe these picture were posted to elaborate on all the items in the pictures......

It's okay. I take every liberty available to me.