Tricky Electricians

[Bruce A. King]

I am finding many new homes here that have the fridge connected to one of the required 20 amp kitchen counter circuits.

They are connecting it upstream of the GFCI.

You have to look for a fridge breaker or trip the two kitchen circuit breakers
and check the power at the fridge.

[Marc D. Shunk]

What you describe is legal, but I personally consider it bad design to put the frige on with the countertop receptacles. I generally dedicate a circuit to the frige. The code does require that the refrigeration equipment be served by the two or more small appliance circuits.

210.52

(B) Small Appliances
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served In the kitchen, pantry,
breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.

Exception No. 2: The receptacle outlet for refrigeration

equipment shall be permitted to be supplied from an individual branch circuit rated 15 amperes or greater.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Yeppers....no violation in doing exactly that. The fridge in the kitchen can perfectly well be on the Small Appliance Circuit....as MARC perfectly stated.

Usually I don't dedicate the Fridge in the kitchen on it's own circuit unless I know it is going to be a Sub-Zero or a larger unit and since most of the homes I do are HIGH end.....I usually always dedicate a circuit to it......but if the house is smaller and so on...I will put the fridge manytimes on the dining room receptacle circuit and end that circuit at the fridge.....

[Marc D. Shunk]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

Usually I don't dedicate the Fridge in the kitchen on it's own circuit unless I know it is going to be a Sub-Zero or a larger unit and since most of the homes I do are HIGH end.....I usually always dedicate a circuit to it......but if the house is smaller and so on...I will put the fridge manytimes on the dining room receptacle circuit and end that circuit at the fridge.....

Since we're getting into installation practices a little bit, I'll share mine. I make liberal use of multiwire branch circuits, where ever possible. For the kitchen, I run a 12-3 to the first countertop rec for two circuits at the countertop. I run another 12-3 to the frige rec to serve the fridge and branch over to the micro/hood. I run another 12-3 to the disposal rec (or switch, normally), then branch over to the dishwasher rec. I thought my practice of running as many multiwire branch circuits as possible might end soon, with the coming AFCI requirements for all 15 and 20 amp stuff, but maybe not. My price list I got on friday from Cutler-Hammer shows that the 2pole AFCI's came way down in price this week, and they're only a hair more than twice the price of two one poles. That's good news, since CH is my main brand.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Multi-wire branch circuits are perfectly allowed as you know. I simply stay away from them for end consumer safety reasons but to each his own. I am old fashion in that I simply bring a direct line to each circuit I am working with in the kitchen.

Yep, Eaton has made a 2 pole AFCI for a while now and when THAT imfamous requirement goes into effect you will probably see a dramatic drop in price soon after...I plan on speaking to them about that in 2 weeks among other things.

Thats what makes being an electrician so wonderful.....so many different methods to doing something, you can change something up a bit to break op the day to day normal routine and it gives us MUCH more creative idea's than plumbers, HVAC guys and so on....simply lOVE my profession as you do as well...passion shows...

[Marc D. Shunk]

Paul, did you get the Siemens mailer that must have went out to a zillion electricians several weeks ago? They claim that January 2008 requirement for combination type AFCI's will add between 250 and 500 bucks to the house's wiring costs. Lord only knows what the whole house AFCI change will add to the wiring price.

http://www.sea.siemens.com/reselec/d...AFCIletter.pdf

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Marc,
I don't remember reading that before but I think the industry will modulate itself in regards to the costs of the additional safety. The data on fires would tend to support the move but the jury is still out on how the manufactures will handle this.

The thing that I always fine interesting about these things is..take Virginia, by the time we observe the 2005 NEC and it's mandates to the point our state will actually enforce any would be around 2008 at this point and by then I bet AFCI's are around 7-10 bucks a pop.

Will be VERY interesting to see how it goes over the next 8-10 months before final publication.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

I kinda look at it differently than some people I chat with, I speak to alot of AHJ's and we talk about it this way.

The cost of wiring a home went up greatly with the increase of Copper costs in the past 2 years bringing the average cost of wiring a home up 30% or more in many cases.

The public demands safety even if the manufactures do tend to SPEED up the issue for financial gain ( opps...don't tell GREG I said that... ) but in reality It will probably be an adjusted increase in that the public will understand the increases due to safety.

As electricians I guess we are simply going to have to explain this more to the builders so they dont FREAK over the increased costs but again safety brings higher costs and look at the GFCI and how it has come down with the advent of the GFCI receptacle......soon AFCI will probably be the same way and costs will balance out....but again simply my opinion.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

lol....but you did get me thinking......I do ALOT of 400A services and I mean mostly all I do is 400A services these days....now thats an expensive requirement if you consider 38.00 for an AFCI...remove the standard cost of a normal breaker ( $ 4.00 bucks ) so thats $ 34.00 x possibly 45 breakers...

Yikes....thats $ 1,500+...but then again my price was $ 30,000 on my last house that was 400A so it is all relavant I guess since people with that size house and money wont even question the increase.

[Marc D. Shunk]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

As electricians I guess we are simply going to have to explain this more to the builders so they dont FREAK over the increased costs...

Builders don't need a good reason to freak out, often times. Everyone will be held to the same requirements in a given area, so I won't feel an overwhelming need to explain. Everyone's price will necessarily be higher. I don't wire much new construction anyhow. Mostly service work and rewires, which are necessarily already expensive. Where builders get themselves into trouble is when they bid work based on old pricing "rules of thumb" that they've picked up over the years. They win a project, then put the mechanicals out for bid. Since codes change, so do prices. They get the bids back with the "real" prices, then freak because they weren't in line with the budget for that particular system in their overall bid. That's not my fault. I'm sure you will agree that people who have price as their main concern aren't generally people who are especially fun to work for anyhow. I'd rather weed these folks out of the customer base.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Originally Posted by Marc D. Shunk

Builders don't need a good reason to freak out, often times. Everyone will be held to the same requirements in a given area, so I won't feel an overwhelming need to explain. Everyone's price will necessarily be higher. I don't wire much new construction anyhow. Mostly service work and rewires, which are necessarily already expensive. Where builders get themselves into trouble is when they bid work based on old pricing "rules of thumb" that they've picked up over the years. They win a project, then put the mechanicals out for bid. Since codes change, so do prices. They get the bids back with the "real" prices, then freak because they weren't in line with the budget for that particular system in their overall bid. That's not my fault. I'm sure you will agree that people who have price as their main concern aren't generally people who are especially fun to work for anyhow. I'd rather weed these folks out of the customer base.

OMG......Marc I could not AGREE more with you on those statements....My biggest PAIN in the ***** is the ones that have the money NOT to be a pain in the *****. However, they dont like me either much because I complain ALOT when I see them doing things in the wrong order.......

It is getting harder and harder in new construction to win bids because people are low balling prices and I simply wont go there, I will retire and teach and do seminars full time if that finally happens.....

We do service work as well and some remodel electrical and I always get my price in doing that work without question so I agree with you but if given my preference...give me NEW and CLEAN studs anytime...

[tdietrich1]

I run into this in discussion, with others.

What is the real change? I mean, right now I put in AFCI breakers on branch circuits for all bedroom circuits. So in 2008, what do I have to do differently?

tom

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Tom,

You will have to put AFCI on ALL 15 & 20 A circuits in the dwelling......that are 125V.....and that means ANY and ALL........

[tdietrich1]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

Tom,

You will have to put AFCI on ALL 15 & 20 A circuits in the dwelling......that are 125V.....and that means ANY and ALL........

Looking at the 2005 NEC, where in it is ALL branch circuits? I still only see it listed under "Dwelling Unit Bedrooms" 210.12.b

tom

P.S. Long day, too much shoveling, tired, so this might be a very dumb question

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Tom...we are talking about the 2008 NEC...not the 2005 NEC....

The 2005 NEC calls for the Combination AFCI to be madated by 2008......two different topics going on .