Tub/outlet location?

[whandley]

Found this today. Anyone have a specific code that would prevent such a scary installation?

[Dale Duffy]

Originally Posted by whandley

Anyone have a specific code that would prevent such a scary installation?

Involuntary Manslaughter?

[Dale Duffy]

Crazy some of the things we come across, simply amazing......

[Marc D. Shunk]

The receptacle isn't allowed to be within the tub enclosure. I don't like that one bit, but the fact that the side of that vanity is not tiled and not deteriorated with age leads me to believe that it's no within the tub enclosure. I'd put that feeling aside and say it is within the enclosure anyhow, and cry foul on that one.


406.8(C)Bathtub and shower space. Receptacles shall not be installed within or directly over a bathtub or shower stall.

I can see a code inspector going either way on that one. I know that similar photos cause a lot of debate and discussion on electrician sites.

[Dale Duffy]

Originally Posted by Marc D. Shunk

The receptacle isn't allowed to be within the tub enclosure. I don't like that one bit, but the fact that the side of that vanity is not tiled and not deteriorated with age leads me to believe that it's no within the tub enclosure. I'd put that feeling aside and say it is within the enclosure anyhow, and cry foul on that one.


406.8(C)Bathtub and shower space. Receptacles shall not be installed within or directly over a bathtub or shower stall.

I can see a code inspector going either way on that one. I know that similar photos cause a lot of debate and discussion on electrician sites.

Good post as always Marc,....I think I would simply write in the report to remove the receptacle before someone gets killed, simple as that....I could really care less about codes, except the common sense ones...

[Marc D. Shunk]

Here's more than you probably needed to know, but I highlighted a few things in red that might clear this up a tiny bit. These are some recent code change proposals that didn't pass muster.

_______________________________________________ ______________
18-27 Log #83 NEC-P18 Final Action: Reject
(406.8(C))

__________________________________________________ ______________

Submitter: Joe Riley, City of Arlington

Recommendation: Revise as follows:
Receptacles shall not be installed within or directly over a bathtub or shower
stall measuring 900 m (3 ft) horizontally and vertically to the ceiling from the
top of the bathtub rim or shower stall threshold.

Substantiation: Tub and shower spaces for devices is little vague and up to
interpretation. Consistency of electrical device and equipment locations with
other parts of the code such as
410.4(D) only makes sense in ensuring electrical safety.

Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: Section 406.8(C) is intended to be different from 410.4(D).
Cord-connected and similar luminaries are required to be grounded and are not
required to be protected by GFCIs. They are, however, prohibited from being
installed near or above a tub or shower zone. Receptacles, on the other hand,
are required to be both grounded and protected by a GFCI. Further, they are
required to be installed at the sink location. In many bathrooms, it is impossible
to install a receptacle if it is also prohibited from being installed within 3 feet
horizontally of a shower or tub.

Number Eligible to Vote: 12
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 12

18-41 Log #1514 NEC-P18
(406-8(C))
Final Action: Accept in Principle
Submitter: Harold F. Willman, City of Aurora
Recommendation:
Revise text to read as follows:
(C) Bathtub and Shower Space Area. A receptacle shall not be installed within a bathtub or shower space area.
FPN: See 410.4(D) for tub or shower area definition.

Substantiation:
Because all Code Panels intend exact wording, words with the same meaning are used to avoid the redundancy of a specific word. Space,
area and zone are examples of using words synonymously in Chapters 1 through 4. An example is NEC 110.26(F)(1) and 110.26(F)(2)
where all three words are used synonymously. By changing "space" to "area" and using the FPN to refer to the definition, it makes the
intent clear as to the space the receptacle is not to be installed. This will also void the argument that "area" and "space" are not the same
word and therefore do not mean the same thing. This wording and definition references clarifies the hazard of electric devices within a
wet space, area or zone.

Panel Meeting Action: Accept in Principle
Revise 406.8(C) to read:
(C) Bathtub and Shower Space. Receptacles shall not be installed within or directly over the bathtub or shower stall.

Panel Statement:
The panel does not agree that receptacles need to be installed 3 feet away from the outer edge of a tub or shower. In many instances,
especially in the smaller apartment sized bathrooms, it would be impossible to install a receptacle beyond 3 feet from the edge of the tub.
The panel does agree that receptacles shall not be installed within the footprint of a tub or shower. The panel action adequately conveys
the location restriction without the use of a fine print note. The panel does not concur with the submitter's statement regarding the use
of words with the same meaning to avoid redundancy.
Number Eligible to Vote: 10
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 10

I guess you'd have to ask yourself if that receptacle is within the footprint of the tub or shower? I think the footprint of the tub ends where that tile starts next the vanity, but I still don't like this install.

[whandley]

Thanks Marc;

That's exactly what I needed. The agent, as usual stated he'd been in the business for 30 years and never had an inspector call that out before.

My comment, "See you learn something everyday".. Keep in mind, he's the buyers agent...

You gotta love the real estate biz!

[Marc D. Shunk]

Originally Posted by whandley

Thanks Marc;

That's exactly what I needed. The agent, as usual stated he'd been in the business for 30 years and never had an inspector call that out before.

Lucky for you guys that you can use your gut and don't have to worry so much about the exact words in any particular code. Anyone's gut should twinge a bit seeing that receptacle there, even if it probably is code-legal.

[Bob Elliott]

Was it GFCI protected at least?

[whandley]

Originally Posted by relliott

Was it GFCI protected at least?

Yes. But I'm not relying on a $12 GFCI fixture to protect me from a live 120v outlet within 12" of the tub deck and faucet fixtures. Can you imagine a couple of toddlers playing in that tub?

[Bob Elliott]

yeah not a good scenerio.
No more drying hair in the tub for them eh.

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by dduffy

Good post as always Marc,....I think I would simply write in the report to remove the receptacle before someone gets killed, simple as that....I could really care less about codes, except the common sense ones...

For Canucks reading the thread, our national electrical code (NEC) states in 26-710 (g):

Receptacles installed in bathrooms shall, where practicable, be located at least 1 meter (3.28') but in no case less than 500mm (20") from the bathtub or shower stall, this distance being measured horizontally between the receptacle and the bathtub and shower stall, without piercing a wall, partition or similar obstacle.

[Frank P. Newman]

Strictly as a H.I. I guess I would have a little different perspective. Rather than even worrying about which specific code paragraph may or may not apply, I would feel morally obligated to point out the obvious hazards of having a receptacle (even though GFI) in such a location.

[rmaday]

Originally Posted by Marc D. Shunk

406.8(C)Bathtub and shower space. Receptacles shall not be installed within or directly over a bathtub or shower stall.

I can see a code inspector going either way on that one. I know that similar photos cause a lot of debate and discussion on electrician sites.

Just curious Marc,
What are the arguments "for" that install?

[rbrady]

As far as using GFCI, from what I have heard, a 6ma shock may not kill you, but it is still very painful. </IMG>