Two wire circuit

[James F. McKee]

Originally Posted by Marc D. Shunk

Right, and quite possibly all the receptacles were dead ends. It was quite popular to feed each receptacle with a drop from the light box in the room, or up from the basement lighting boxes. All I'm trying to say is that it is quite possible the sparky was not trying to rip her off.

I have to admit I never thought of that possibility.....

[Terry Clayton]

There are multitudes of ways to wire a home no 2 electricians wire the same, some times close if they are doing track haomes or condos/apartments, you did the right thing in advising to get 2nd opinons but not to say the electrician was ripping her off.

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by Marc D. Shunk

This is true, but if the main goal is enhanced ground fault safety, and a fusepanel exists, the requisite service upgrade/panel change required might often exceed the cost of GFCI receptacles in the right places.

With fuse panels up here, GFCI breakers are installed in 1104 device boxes beside the panel. Each two wire circuit feed from the panel is run through the external GFCI and protected that way without having to change out the panel.

[Marc D. Shunk]

Originally Posted by Brian A. MacNeish

With fuse panels up here, GFCI breakers are installed in 1104 device boxes beside the panel. Each two wire circuit feed from the panel is run through the external GFCI and protected that way without having to change out the panel.

That's one method, but if the panel is flush in the wall in a finished area, for instance, that can get a little pricey too. There's a way to make anything happen you want or need to happen. Some options are more costly than others.

[Frank P. Newman]

I had been just been reading this discussion, then just Friday I inspected a house where apparently some homeowner 'upgrading' had been done. All of the receptacle were nice new 3 prong. A few of the newer circuits were ok but many had the 3 prong receptacles connected to the old (1970) two wire romex - even one in the garage directly below the main distribution panel! I caught it when I plugged my tester into the first front porch receptacle and took that one apart to make certain the situation was as I thought. Worse yet, a receptacle on the back outside wall was loose and had its ground terminal connected to a nearby hose bib (photo). Of course I wrote it all up recommending evaluation, etc. My question - (if I am asked) are there any locations in the home where installing a GFCI receptacle or breaker would not be ok as a solution?

[Marc D. Shunk]

Originally Posted by fnewman

My question - (if I am asked) are there any locations in the home where installing a GFCI receptacle or breaker would not be ok as a solution?

The short answer is "no". The main objection there would be cost.

[rbrady]

Originally Posted by fnewman

My question - (if I am asked) are there any locations in the home where installing a GFCI receptacle or breaker would not be ok as a solution?

Many surge protectors require grounding for the manufacturers warranty to be in effect.
GFCI's also will not reduce the risk of getting a painful electrical shock, however they do reduce the risk that the shock will be fatal!

GFCI's should definitely be used near water sources and bare concrete floors if it is a grounded circuit or not, but grounding will reduce the risk of shocks overall.

[brian winkle]

Originally Posted by fnewman

My question - (if I am asked) are there any locations in the home where installing a GFCI receptacle or breaker would not be ok as a solution?

This is where the code seems to be contradictory, to me anyhow. 406.3 allows us to install a gfci where no grounding exists, but 250.114(3) pretty much forbids it's use by anything with a grounding type cord.

[Jim Port]

Those locations mentioned in 250-114 would need to have a grounded ciruit and receptacle to serve them.

Installing a GFI would not be appropriate in those cases.

[brian winkle]

Originally Posted by Jim Port

Those locations mentioned in 250-114 would need to have a grounded ciruit and receptacle to serve them.

Installing a GFI would not be appropriate in those cases.

Not following you here Jim, 250.114(3) (2005 NEC) does not refer to locations, it refers to equipment, appliances, tools, computers etc., much of which can be moved around.

[Jim Port]

I mistyped locations when i meant equipment.

If the equipment must be moved the grounded circuit should follow. Reading the list I really don't see too many refrigerators, freezers, washers or sump pumps moving too frequently.

[brian winkle]

Originally Posted by Jim Port

I mistyped locations when i meant equipment.

If the equipment must be moved the grounded circuit should follow. Reading the list I really don't see too many refrigerators, freezers, washers or sump pumps moving too frequently.

Probably not, but what about "information technology equipment?". My point was, and still is, can you think of anything that has a grounding plug that can legally be plugged into an ungrounded receptacle, gfci or not?
If it is not on the list in the code, it says so in the manufacturer's instructions.

That is why I maintain that the code is saying you can install the gfci, but you can't use it for 3 wire loads.

I welcome anyone to show me I am wrong.

[Jim Port]

OK, I see your conflict. I would agree that use of a 3 prong cord in an ungrounded GFI receptacle would not be a compliant usage.

With that said the majority of household devices only have a 2 wire cord and safety is enhanced using GFI protection on the 2 wire circuits. IMO the Code looks at this as a reasonable compromise instead of having the whole house rewired.

[rbrady]

Originally Posted by Jim Port

With that said the majority of household devices only have a 2 wire cord and safety is enhanced using GFI protection on the 2 wire circuits. IMO the Code looks at this as a reasonable compromise instead of having the whole house rewired.

On a 2-wire cord the presence of a ground makes no difference, so it really isn't a choice of using GFCI or re-wiring. You might as well just use a 2-prong receptacle, which is also code compliant.

[Greg Fretwell]

I have never really been able to rationalize the ungrounded 3 pin receptacle on a GFCI. I suppose you are adding a level of safety where it didn't exist but you have to understand the first line of defense involves a short duration shock of unknown intensity to the user (assuming the GFCI operates as it should). The GFCI does not limit the shock to 5ma, that is just the lower threshold it trips on. The fault can present full circuit ampacity. That is why a bolted ground fault usually fries the GFCI.